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Large follicle but closed cervix?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » General Mare Questions - Volume 2 » Large follicle but closed cervix? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Audrey Crosby McLellan
Neonate
Username: Accphotography

Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 02:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My mare has a soft 37mm but her cervix is tightly closed and pale and her uterus shows no edema. There was no apparent luteal tissue. What could this indicate? She is not showing signs of heat and has now gone two cycles like this. She was showing obvious heats before these cycles. This was her first ultrasound.

Thanks!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2789
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 02:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If the cervix is closed, it either indicates that she has some cervical problems (sometimes seen in older mares in particular) if there truly is no luteal tissue present (i.e. she has not ovulated yet this year); or that she has a mid-cycle follicle and the luteal tissue was missed on u/s (mares can and will produce follicles during diestrus, even large follicles).

Progesterone produced by the CL causes the cervix to close, so if she had not ovulated this year yet (so no luteal tissue) the cervix should be relaxed. The exception to that would be the mare that has fibrotic tissue present in the cervical region for example and that has trouble relaxing the cervix even if she is in estrus (and she would be a candidate for delayed uterine clearance issues, so be on your guard if that is the case).

You can confirm ovulation by running a blood progesterone assay, although you may need to do 3, once a week over a 3 week period, in the event that the first two show no progesterone. Once you have a reading >1 ng/ml you know she's ovulated and is out of transitional phase. Remember that during transitional phase mares can and will show estrus without ovulation.
 

Audrey Crosby McLellan
Neonate
Username: Accphotography

Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 03:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How easy is it to miss luteal tissue on US?

We're scheduled to recheck Friday to see if she releases that follicle. If she does will that tell us anything about why she was in this state? Or if she doesn't release what would be the normal next course of action?

I knew mares developed follicles during diestrus, I was just under the impression that they wouldn't get this big?

Thanks so much!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2792
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 09:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How easy is it to miss luteal tissue on US?

It will depend entirely upon the quality of the machine being used, the ability of the technician using it, and the amount of care that is taken.

We're scheduled to recheck Friday to see if she releases that follicle. If she does will that tell us anything about why she was in this state? Or if she doesn't release what would be the normal next course of action?

Nope, won't really tell you anything (as you'll see why in a moment...). What you want to see is uterine edema per ultrasound in addition to a developing follicle and relaxed cervix.

I knew mares developed follicles during diestrus, I was just under the impression that they wouldn't get this big?

Not only will they get large, but they will even sometimes ovulate during diestrus. That's why it's so essential to have other indications of estrus present before breeding and to not rely on the follicular diameter alone as an indication of timing to breed...
 

Audrey Crosby McLellan
Nursing Foal
Username: Accphotography

Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 09:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok so you're thinking if she doesn't ovulate this follicle by Friday we can expect her to be coming into heat soon?
 

Audrey Crosby McLellan
Nursing Foal
Username: Accphotography

Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2010 - 12:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok well she didn't ovulate. Vet said there appeared to be some grayishness to the follicle now. I watched the US both times and the first time saw a perfectly round black blob and this time saw a less round, less black blob that MAY (I wouldn't swear to it) have had some slight striations in it. The vet also mumbled to herself that she might have seen some luteal tissue but she didn't mention it again or to us directly so she either ruled it out or wasn't sure. She said it could either be a hemorrhagic follicle or it could be in the process of ovulating right now. Her advice was to give a shot of deslorelin to force ovulation (if it will ovulate that is) and recheck on Monday to see if it has ovulated or if it has become more obviously hemorrhagic.

Oh and just looking at the paper she wrote up she said "37mm + particles".

Is this something that could be caused by her being transitional (I didn't think she was, but maybe)? Is it possible this is NOT an HF? Is there anything that can be done about it if it IS an HF?

Any other thoughts or advice?

Thanks!

(Message edited by accphotography on April 10, 2010)
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2795
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2010 - 11:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We have an article that discusses various aspect of AHF's which may assist with some of your questions.

The cause of AHF's is unknown, although it's thought that it may well be connected to low levels of estrogens and/or LH, often associated with transitional phases (they are more common early and late in the season). As the cause is not completely understood, there is no solution, although about 85% of them will develop luteal tissue which will respond to use of Prostaglandin F. The solution (if it is one) therefore is to treat the mare with Prostaglandin F a week or so after the formation appears. The unfortunate thing is that there are about 15% who do not develop luteal tissue and therefore all one can do with those is sit and wait for it to resolve itself - typically during the next 60-90 days.
 

Audrey Crosby McLellan
Nursing Foal
Username: Accphotography

Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2010 - 07:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok it was still there today and still 37mm. Vet said it didn't look like a typical AHF (only slightly hyperechoic and no visible striations), but she has no other explanation for it at this point.

We made the decision to go ahead and treat with Prostin that way we will know now if it will work or not. We'd rather wait it out after trying what we can. She said let her know if she shows any symptoms of heat any time before Friday and if not then we will recheck on Friday anyway.

Another question... what is the "standard" dose and what is the small dose amounts in mg for Prostin? I could have sworn she told me she gave her 10mg but that can't possibly be right... can it?

Thanks!!

(Message edited by accphotography on April 12, 2010)
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2800
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2010 - 11:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The reduced dosage is 1/10th of the normal standard dose. The Hormone products that were used in that research were Lutalyse and Estrumate (Dinoprost tromethamine and Cloprostenol respectively). Lutalyse contains 5 mg/ml of the active ingredient and typically a "normal" dose is 1-2 ml although 1 ml is preferable, particularly in view of the fact that 0.10 ml has been demonstrated as adequate!
 

Audrey Crosby McLellan
Nursing Foal
Username: Accphotography

Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 01:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unfortunately all of the measurements go straight over my head, especially with the conversions. I'm pretty sure she said 10mg, which seems like it would have been a small dose but I can't tell because of the confusing conversions.

But I will say, she did do the break out into a raining/pouring sweat and she did have abdominal cramps (she was doing a pregnant mare's "butt tucks"). Bannamine helped her a bit and she was fine after about 45 minutes. I would suspect this would indicate the dosage was enough? It might also indicate the dosage was too much though. LOL

Thanks again! You guys are so helpful!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2802
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 - 10:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am unsure of the concentration of the active ingredient in Prostin. If you can find the bottle, you can check it, but the most commonly used product here in the USA is Lutalyse, details of which I provided above.

If it were Lutalyse, then if she was give 10 mg, at 5 mg/ml 2 ml were given, which would be at the upper end of the "normal" dose. The sweating and cramping does not indicate an "adequate" dosage - indeed, if anything it indicates that the micro-dose which is perfectly adequate was not given and the mare was subjected to unnecessary and unpleasant side-effects! It is worthy of note that some mares do not sweat or get crampy, and yet still come back into estrus in a predictable time frame following treatment; while other mares who have recently ovulated do not come back into estrus even though they sweat and get crampy.

You might also read the article on our site entitled "I gave my mare Prostaglandin but it didn't work" which might explain a little more about the whole thing as well.
 

Audrey Crosby McLellan
Nursing Foal
Username: Accphotography

Post Number: 15
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2010 - 01:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well it WORKED!!! Bless you!! The follicle is gone! The small (15mm on Monday) follicle that had come up along side it has taken over and is a firm 30mm now and she is coming into heat (showing more receptivity and producing copious amounts of discharge, which is normal for her in the first 2-3 days of heat). Now just to debate if we will attempt to breed her on this cycle or short cycle her after this cycle (or even just wait for the next one).

Thanks so much!!!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2810
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2010 - 02:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Be aware that about 43% of mares that have had one AHF in the breeding season will produce another at some point. Consequently, the rule of thumb with a mare that has a resolved AHF is, if you can breed, do so! If you wait for the next (or subsequent cycle) that may result in another AHF... (or not of course! :-))
 

Audrey Crosby McLellan
Nursing Foal
Username: Accphotography

Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2010 - 01:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Her 30mm completely disappeared, go figure. However she developed a 28mm on the other ovary. It was looking like she was going to ovulate over the weekend (Sunday or Monday when the only way to get semen was to use an airline... ouch), however we decided to just bite the bullet and take the chance that she'd surprise and order semen on Friday to arrive on Saturday. She had a 30mm when we checked her Thursday evening (up only 2mm from Wednesday morning) and we decided there was no point checking her Friday as it wouldn't change a thing (couldn't get semen in for Friday, Sunday or Monday). We were all crossing fingers and praying that she had at least a 35mm by Saturday morning so we could give her Deslorelin and hope our timing worked. Well she had a FORTY 40mm!! Her uterus was losing edema and her cervix closing so the vet felt she was VERY close to ovulation, but we gave her the Deslorelin anyway as we would have felt really stupid on Monday if she hadn't ovulated. So in went 4 billion LMN (Saturday) and now we wait to check Monday to make sure she ovulated. Then the 14 day wait. We're so excited! We were all truly surprised she went from a 30mm to a 40mm in 36 hours but very happy about it. The vet said if she doesn't take she has no excuse. LOL!

Wish us luck!!
 

Audrey Crosby McLellan
Nursing Foal
Username: Accphotography

Post Number: 18
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 10:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CL is firmly in place!! Now to wait the 14 days! *crosses all appendages*
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2826
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 - 11:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

FYI you can successfully give Deslorelin on a 30 mm follicle to promote ovulation. hCG requires a 35, but Deslorelin only a 30.

Sperm cause an inflammatory response in the uterus, and putting in more than 500 million progressively motile morphologically normal sperm has been shown to not increase pregnancy rates, however in some instances (particularly older mares with DUC issues) may actually reduce pregnancy rates. In fact, as few as 100 million PMMN sperm are adequate in most instances (see our article about semen quality for more details).

The angle at which a follicle is ultrasounded can cause an apparent difference in diameter, so it is necessary to measure the widest and narrowest parts and average them - and even then one can see differences at different angles!

Good luck.
 

Audrey Crosby McLellan
Nursing Foal
Username: Accphotography

Post Number: 19
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Monday, May 03, 2010 - 12:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

FWIW she had no fluid in her uterus when we checked on Monday so she either didn't have much of a response or she cleared it that quickly.

I'm really glad we didn't give deslorelin for the 30mm since it regressed anyway.

One more week and we'll know.
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2750
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Monday, May 03, 2010 - 11:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's good news. I hope things progress as planned.
 

Audrey Crosby McLellan
Nursing Foal
Username: Accphotography

Post Number: 20
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 10:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We find out tomorrow! Cross all your fingers and toes for us!!
 

Audrey Crosby McLellan
Weanling
Username: Accphotography

Post Number: 21
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 01:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w65/accphotography/Lace/Pregnancy/DSCF1286.jp g

 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2846
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2010 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Congratulations! :-)
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 2714
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 10:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is what we like to see :-) Congrats!
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2771
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 12:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My favorite picture! Congratulations!!!
 

Audrey Crosby McLellan
Weanling
Username: Accphotography

Post Number: 29
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 03:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Checked still in foal with a lovely little heartbeat at 23 days. YAY! :-D
 

Audrey Crosby McLellan
Weanling
Username: Accphotography

Post Number: 31
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2010 - 06:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Still in foal at 64 days with a big FILLY!!!!



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