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Bad behaviour

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » General Mare Questions - Volume 2 » Bad behaviour « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Kim Winter
Breeding Stock
Username: Clafairy

Post Number: 594
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 10:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is not really related to breeding as such but you gave such great advice back when my foal was just an idea that now she is real I need help with her behaviour!
She has just started at 2yrs old to double barrel me when I try and move her or muck out behind her while she is eating her dinner, yet up until now it was never an issue. Perhaps because that owner at the yard has been feeding her in the field with another horse and maybe she thinks she has to protect her food? I dont know - but how do I stop this habit? Any ideas????
 

charlene birdsall, Jetta born 3/20/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Charlie67

Post Number: 938
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 03:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This sounds like a issue of not respecting your space. This is a common problem with alot of horses I think. Do you have her in a stall? If so, how big is it, and do you have a run off of the stall?
 

Catherine Owen
Breeding Stock
Username: Cateowen

Post Number: 344
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 05:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kim,
This is a dangerous habit that once it gets ingrained, it can be very difficult to break. I am assuming that by "double barrel" you mean she is kicking with both hind feet.

Many questions here:
1) How long has this been going on? If she has only done it once or twice it will be a totally different "ball game" than if she has repeatedly done it for several weeks or even months;
2) What kind of reprimand do you apply when she does this?
3) How far along in her training is she? Have you spent a lot of time with her using the "Touch" method or any other variety of methods?
4) Does she do this just at feeding time or at other times, particularly when you are handling her?
5) Does the farrier have problems with her?
6) Does she do this with everyone or just you?

A two-year-old firing at me with both hind feet is not something I would take lightly. It can be an indicator of a number of things and may be something you need professional help with.
 

Kim Winter
Breeding Stock
Username: Clafairy

Post Number: 595
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2008 - 08:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi guys - thanks for your views.
She is in a stall at night and out during the day, she is 14.3hh-15hh, she likes being stabled more so than living out.No problems with the farrier, no problems with handling in general - I have done a lot of touch work, she has been trained naturally and every inch of her is strokable. She has done it twice now while eating her dinner when I ask her to move her quarters over, she is fine when I stroke them though. the first time I gave her a boot in the thigh because she had me cornered as she bucked at me and she moved away and I was hoping that would have been enough for her not to try it again, the next time I took her feed and put her halter on and moved her around the stable without the feed in there and she was fine, I gave her the feed back and although she threatened when I asked her to move again she didnt actually lift her hind end and she moved over.but I think she would do it again and I dont want to aggrivate the situation!
any ideas now? what would you do?
 

todd dennis simmons
Neonate
Username: Horsetrainer

Post Number: 6
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 06:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kim,
We use Clinton Anderson and Chris Cox methods here. They both stress the importance of being able to move the hind quarters of the horse at any time. By the time our foals are 2 months old, if we even look at there hindquarters they "MOVE RIGHT NOW!" You will need to spend some time dealing with your situation as soon as you can. Be carefull as what you are describing is extremely dangerous. Make the wrong thing difficult and the right thing easy.
 

charlene birdsall, Jetta born 3/20/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Charlie67

Post Number: 950
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 03:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Todd. I was just curious as to the methods you are refering to? What would Clinton and/or Chris do in this situation? How should Kim go about correcting this dangerous behavior?
 

Kay B. Jones,Nova born 2/24
Breeding Stock
Username: Kaybjones

Post Number: 263
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 04:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know what you'd do with the larger ones, but my vet said today that when his foal put his butt toward him, he would pop his back end with a rope and he no longer puts the butt toward him. Always faces his owner. I bet if we teach this early, its fairly simple and quick to learn.
 

Diana Gilger
Breeding Stock
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 525
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2008 - 11:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I once owned a mare who was a known kicker...she was great at playday events, and was starving to death and needed saved, so my dad thought it'd be a great idea to "save" her. Well, one day she turned on me in the yard, both feet on one hip of mine, I couldn't even walk for a long time....my dad picked up a 2x4 and broke it over her ass!!! It was the last time she ever kicked at anyone! She was absolutely sweet after that day! I'm not saying pick up a 2x4...but if they know there is consequence coming, they'll be less inclined to put their butt to you ...once they have gotten away with it a time or two, they think it's ok. (Kinda like my mastiff...I let him on the couch ONE time when he was a tiny puppy....and I will forever have a mastiff on my couch!)LOL
 

Kim Winter
Breeding Stock
Username: Clafairy

Post Number: 596
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 03:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I used parelli techniques(moving the horses 'zones' and disengaging the hind quarters)when she was just a tiny foal and by 6mths she was showing perfect manners and I never have had any problems until this first instance, she doesnt turn her butt on me, if Im stroking her and walking behind her she is ok but if I ask her to move she does it, she gets a rope flicked on her butt for doing so and quickly retreats but it doesnt seem to have solved the problem! Oh well..... persistance looks like the answer here then! Thanks guys : )
 

Phyllis Schroder
Yearling
Username: Shadowbend

Post Number: 93
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 06:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kim,
Unfortunately persistance by just flicking her with the rope on the butt is probably never going to fix the situation and actually become more of a game to her and more and more dangerous to you.
In correcting a bad habit or vice if you have to use a tecqnique repeatedly day after day on the same problem then that's your first sign that it's not working and you need to move on to another tactic.
If I don't see MARKED improvement by the latest at 3 days then I know there's no progression being made and move on.
On vices especially, when using a method and manner that works well for the problem and that suits that individual you should see marked improvement in one session.
I strongly agree with Todd on using the Clinton Anderson or Chris Cox methods. You'll see immediate improvement with every session and it will be long lasting. Not here today, forgotten tomorrow.
If you have RFD channel you can even catch some of their shows which are excellent.
Meantime, be careful.
 

Phyllis Schroder
Yearling
Username: Shadowbend

Post Number: 94
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 06:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diana,
I just have to say "Kudos" to your dad. Good story and thank god it wasn't worse, you could have been killed.
I'm not advocating abusing or beating horses with boards.
But if it was my child I wouldn't hesitate to do the same. I'm sure it did make a lasting impression and did her no harm other than her ego.
 

todd dennis simmons
Neonate
Username: Horsetrainer

Post Number: 7
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 06:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Charlene and Kim,

Clinton and Chris have great video's available on there respective web sites for training and correcting bad habits.
www.downunderhorsemanship.com and www.chris-cox.com. As Phyllis said on Sat and Sun mornings RFD TV has several hours of horse related programing. As far as what to do with your double barrel problem. DISENGAGE THE HINDQUARTERS! Every day for 20 minutes on both sides of the horse, several sessions a day are best. In a week all you should have to do is look at the mares hind end and she will move over. Trust me on this IT WORKS and it will save you from serious injury.
 

Kim Winter
Breeding Stock
Username: Clafairy

Post Number: 597
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 08:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think you may all be missing something that Im trying to put across here and obviously not doing a very good job. I can disengage the mares hindquarters easily from any distance, its the food here that is the issue, not the level of training at that 'area' Phyllis and todd are obviously very adamant that these other natural methods are showing something useful to my scenario that parelli isnt - perhaps someone could give me a more specific idea of what they would actually advise other than disengaging excerses (which clearly arent working) and the popper of the rope across her backside DOES cause the right reaction and the pressure of me asking her to move DOES stop once shes done it...Im at a loss as to what your suggesting I do - 2 x 4? Increase the impact/pressure since the rope isnt 'working'?
I think persistance is the answer, not force here. thanks for your advice but Im not sure Im keen on where some of this might be leading!
 

charlene birdsall, Jetta born 3/20/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Charlie67

Post Number: 953
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 08:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Kim. I understand your frustration. When I first got my mare she was just a little over a year old. At the time I kept her in a large pasture, and fed her out there when the grass was gone. When I went in her field with her hay and grain she would crowd me with pinned ears. This was when I started carrying a broom with me, for protection. The next time I went in there and she pinned her ears at me, I dropped her food, and chased her off with the broom yelling GET like I was going to kill her if she came near "My" food. I then proceeded to guard her food like I was eating it, and wouldn't let her approach me until she was submissive. Ever watch horses in the wild? There is always an Alpha mare, and the one's who are not usually eat last, and if you notice when they try to come in to eat they do so in a submissive way. I was letting her know that I was the Alpha horse, and she was not going to get to eat until she was submissive. This may sound a little extreme, but it worked for me. After she was submissive, I would go back up to her and pet her to let her know she was ok. Then I asked her to move away from the food again. Needless to say she got mad again, so I chased her off again and repeated the whole process. This took a few times until she got the message, and I am not in any way suggesting that this might work for you. I just wanted to tell you what worked for me.
 

Andrea Barnes
Nursing Foal
Username: Gsagain

Post Number: 14
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 01:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree. Don't give her a chance to even think about moving her butt towards you. If the problem is the food, it's a respect issue. Respect issues escalate past the food and maybe she won't want to stand for grooming next time.
Go in her stall with a buggy whip. Move her away from you as soon as she even looks agressive.
Basically, if you can hit her butt with the whip, do it. Hard and fast. Yell and holler to get her to move away.
You should invite her to YOUR space WHEN you say it's okay.
After you are comfortable, add food into the equation. Again, don't give her a chance to get agressive. Holler and swing the whip at her feet to get her to move away.
Good luck!
 

Kim Winter
Breeding Stock
Username: Clafairy

Post Number: 598
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 07:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks guys. Since day one when I started creep feeding her she always had to step back away from me before I would put the feed on the floor and allow her to eat. I didnt want her to 'crowd' me for it or even chase me... a bit like charlene, you are describing. She still steps back as I o to her with feed, she does so wih her ears back now though and threatening. I still hold on to it till she steps away and stays away but I notice she is more aggressive about it herself than she was when she was younger! I dont feed her myself every night - the yard she is at do it for me quite often so I dont go everytime, but they just put it in and leave her so they shouldnt be noticng any problems... thank you for your ideas, they are very detailed and very useful - Ill give t a go! : )
 

Phyllis Schroder
Yearling
Username: Shadowbend

Post Number: 98
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2008 - 07:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Honestly, I'm not a Parrelli fan myself, but each person has different tastes ect.

If she truly respected the my space/your space and the disengaging lessons she had learned in the past, then it wouldn't matter where you are or wether food is involved or not.

Frankly, right now she's challenging you on this point (dominance) and she's winning ground.

I'm not advocating beating her, but I definitely think you need to make a distinct impression and she needs to learn that the thought of turning her hind end to you at anytime, anywhere, any situation is absolutely unacceptable in no uncertain terms.

I believe to do so you need to make a strong impression on her of how wrong her action was, and yes I mean applying whatever method with some stern force to leave a lasting impression. Wether it be a sharp sting from a buggy whip, smack from leadrope ect.. Let her know you're not kidding and not to take you lightly or think of trying again.

The fact that she would even make the threat more than once says she is not taking you very serious or respecting you.

Ultimately, it's your choice to handle it as you see fit and everyone does things differently. But, however you choose to handle it be extremely careful. You may worry about stinging her butt or bruising her ego but she's not worried about hospitalizing you.
 

charlene birdsall, Jetta born 3/20/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Charlie67

Post Number: 956
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Sunday, June 08, 2008 - 03:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kim does her stall have a run attached to it? Like this http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa97/mollytomale-photos/100_0203.jpg, and if not could you rig up a tempory one. How do you feed her her grain and hay? Does she have a hay and grain feeder? Are the seperate from each other? My mares is seperate. What I do is I give her her grain first, and even though she has a feeder door right above her grain tub, alot of times I will go in to give it to her. This way if she is pissy, and I smack her for it, she can run to her outside pen to get away. This way they won't feel trapped. When my mare was in the barn, her stall was a 12x24 foaling stall. If your mare is in a 12x12, and has no way to get out, then this could be very tricky trying to repremand her and not get yourself hurt. Most horses want to run away after they get repremanded. If they can't then they will really get scared, and feel like they have to defend themselves. If I knew your exact situation, then I could tell you better, what I would do if I were in your place. I hope what I said makes sense. I'm starting to think I might be rambling on a bit too much
 

Kim Winter
Breeding Stock
Username: Clafairy

Post Number: 599
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 04:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have been feeding her as normal and have stopped the yard from feeding her out in the field. I have never liked that idea anyway. I feed her in the stable and then I go in with a stick and ask her to move over with that so that I dont need to be too close myself. She objected at first and would lift her bum and I would bring the stick down across the top of her rump as though she had lifted it and banged it on something, she soon got the idea that if she just moved over like she was supposed to she didnt get a big bang in the butt : ) once Im sure she wont lift her rear end to me anymore I will start going up and asking her by hand again...so far so good. thanks for all your help and suggestions : )



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