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Determining pregnancy

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » General Mare Questions - Volume 2 » Determining pregnancy « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Bonny
Neonate
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 5
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 09:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My miniature mare was kept with a stallion before I bought her in December. In January she was quite a bit larger so I ordered a wee foal urine test. The test came out Negative. By February she was still larger so I did another wee foal urine test, thinking that maybe I had tested to early, before the 120 recommended days. This time the test came out positive. Well last week I had my vet out to do an external US on my mini. He couldnt find a foal. So I had him draw blood and that came back negative. Anyone ever had a false positive from wee foal or a false negative from a blood test.
I am not sure what type of test he ordered, he just said she had to be past 60 days. And I have had her over 75 days. I am so confused now.
 

Bonny
Neonate
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 7
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 01:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok so he did an estradiol blood test. She was at least 75 day along. I am assuming this mare is not bred. Any ones take on this?
 

Tania
Neonate
Username: Andaloosa

Post Number: 6
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 07:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi
I am not sure if you have this method:
http://www.doubleuacres.com/PregnaMare.htm A few friends of mine use this method and find it pretty accurate.

However, from what you have written, I don't think your mare is pregnant.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1774
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 08:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Pregnamare kit tests for eCG presence, and the test needs to be done between days 50 and 70 for maximal accuracy. As this owner has had the mare 75 days, she's past the point where it's to late to use the Pregnamare kit. Additionally, if the mare has lost the foal after about day 35, with the Pregnamare kit she will still show as being pregnant, even though she isn't (i.e. false positive).

The estrone sulfate or total estrogen test kits are reliable from about 100 days on (not sure why your vet said 60 days - there really isn't reliability that early, just a suggestion). They are testing for a hormone that is secreted by the placenta as a result of certain secretions by the fetus itself. If you're showing a "negative" after 120 days, then it's a pretty fair assumption that the mare is not pregnant, or if she is the foal is dead (I'm not mentioning that to panic you - it's unlikely that's the case here, but it is one situation where a mare that was pregnant will suddenly test "negative" with the estrogen/estrone sulfate test).
 

Tania
Neonate
Username: Andaloosa

Post Number: 7
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 10:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From the manufacturers website

The PregnaMare test detects the presence or absence of the pregnancy hormone PMSG* in the blood of the mare from day 40 to day 100 of pregnancy/

A positive test (two blue dots) indicates presence of PMSG. A negative test (one blue dot) indicates the absence of PMSG.

A positive test after day 100 and until day 140 will still be an indication of pregnancy whereas a negative test during this time (day 100-140) is not a valid indication of non-pregnancy.

As reabsorption is common in early pregnancy, repeated testing is recommended, e. g. day 45, day 85, day 125. If no dot develops, the procedure may have been followed incorrectly, the test stored improperly or it has expired. In case the results are negative or very faintly positive, retesting can be done after 1-2 weeks.
*PMSG=Pregnant Mare Scrum Gonadotropin.
 

Bonny
Neonate
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 8
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 11:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well hmmm. Tell me does this mare look as if she is pregnant?
[IMG]http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x12/4793ShyAnne/3-20-08007.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x12/4793ShyAnne/3-20-08010.jpg[/IMG]
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1777
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 11:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tania:

PMSG is the old name for eCG (equine chorionic gonadotropin). It hasn't been called PMSG for about 20 years by scientists - only by the manufacturers of the Pregnamare kit! :-)

eCG is secreted by the endometrial cups, and that secretion commences with the formation of the endometrial cups around day 36 of pregnancy. In order for there to be a reliably detectable increase in eCG, one should wait until 50 days of pregnancy. Tests performed prior to that may return a false negative.

Once the mare has started secretion of eCG, she will continue to secrete it until the regression of the endometrial cups. This usually has occurred by 120 days of pregnancy, but the range for regression is quite dramatic, with a potential for regression as early as 90 days. Hence the suggestion that greatest reliability for the test is to be found between 50-70 days.

Once a mare has started secreting eCG, if the pregnancy is lost, she will not cease to secrete eCG until the same time frame as if she were still pregnant. As the Pregnamare kit assays for eCG, there is a potential for false positives if the mare lost the pregnancy after the formation of the endometrial cups, as described in my post above.

If determination of pregnancy by blood test is desired, it is in my opinion far better to wait until >100 days of pregnancy, and check estrogen levels.

I would only recommend use of a blood test for pregnancy determination in certain circumstances anyway. Blood-assays cannot check for twinning, and are in no way as accurate as a well-performed and timely ultrasound.
 

Bonny
Neonate
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 9
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 08:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you for posting this information. I agree with the reasons fro Not preforming a blood test such as twinning.There are few vets who actually US mini mares in my area. And even mt vet who will US abdominally doesnt have the equipment to do it internally nor is she able to be palpated.
Determining Pregnancy in a mini can be quite challenging.
Any comments on the pictures?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1778
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 11:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We do some work for a large Miniature Horse farm that routinely ultrasounds all of their own mares with no trouble. As long as you have a vet that is prepared to take some time, and does not have arms the thickness of a tree-trunk, it's not a problem.
 

Bonny
Neonate
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 10
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 10:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unfortunately we dont have that. It would be nice if I had that option. My mini isnt as small as some she is 34 inches.
Thanks for posting. I may wait and just see about doing more blood work in a few months when I have my standard size mare checked. Also could y'all not see the pictures? No one has commented...
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 1022
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 12:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bonny, she doesn't look very big to me but if she is pregnant she just might not be far enough along yet. Would she be a maiden? A lot of times maidens don't show until the very end. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you :-)
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1780
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 01:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Photos are not going to be particularly reliable in many "questionable" cases - if the question has arisen, then it's obviously not an obvious conclusion. Additionally, photos taken from an "above" angulation are not that helpful. Shot from the very front or back and at the same height as the animal may prove of value (showing gut enlargement relative to body width), or possible straight on from the side. But - again - photos are not generally that useful if there is any question as to pregnancy status at all, and I therefore will not comment on any photo-pregnancy questions...
 

Bonny
Weanling
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 23
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 06:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks I appreciate the answers!
 

Cynthia Brooks
Neonate
Username: Draftmolly

Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 01:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have three mares that were ultra-sounded last August and all were deemed "open". When one of them started showing signs of pregnancy I purchased the Wee Foal urine tests.

All three mares tested positive for pregnancy with these kits.

Can the Wee Foal test give a false positive and can it give a false positive this late in pregnancy? One mare would be due late May and the other two in June.
 

Bonny
Yearling
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 60
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 06:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I actually got a positive from wee foal on this mare in Feb. I had a neg in Jan on this mare with wee foal. In March I was told by US and blood she was open. So I have no clue if she is or isnt. There are factors that can cause false positive results in wee foal. Mostly user error and if the sample was collected in a dirty old feed bucket as bacteria can alter results.
 

Cynthia
Neonate
Username: Draftmolly

Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 12:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting thing ... I tested 4 mares using the Wee Foal product. It said all 4 were pregnant. I just had them all preg tested with rectal exam and only one is truly pregnant.

I wonder why the other three show positive? I certainly didn't use a dirty feed bucket, LOL!
 

Bonny
Yearling
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 92
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 01:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cynthia, glad to know I am not the only one....Sorry your mares arent bred,Its confusing enough to determine pregnancy without false results.
 

Joyce
Breeding Stock
Username: Luv2ridesaddleseat

Post Number: 154
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 09:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cynthia, I feel bad for you! I think it's rediculous that it's so hard to figure out if these minis are pregnant or not. Hmmm, are your mares minis? I think the next time I will have my mare palpated instead of the ultrasound. I'm not even sure that is reliable until late in the pregnancy. I can't imagine why the weefoal tests came out positive. Thats so disappointing. :-(
 

Lea Guerra
Neonate
Username: Callie21502

Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 05:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just bought a mare about 2 months ago and I noticed she what I thought was a little chunky. However since I got her I have been riding her just about every day and her stomach never got any smaller. About 2 weeks ago I noticed there is visible movement in her flanks. I can see and feel something. Since then her behavior has changed she wants to be alone. I started comparing pics of her when I first got her to pics of her now and I noticed a definite change in her hind end. Her tail head is more prominent. Her teats have also changed in the last week. They are hanging lower and pointing outward and they were not like that before. She also has white flecks all around her udder and her teats look crusty. The last 2 days has been the biggest change, she looks thinner and her flanks are sunk in but at the top I can feel a bulge and movement there but not as much as before. I have a vet coming out Friday. He couldn't see her sooner. Should I be watching for a foal or could something else be causing this? The other owner does not know if she was exposed to a stud or not. (Sorry so long)
 

Lea Guerra
Neonate
Username: Callie21502

Post Number: 2
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 05:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also along with the movement, her belly would actually shift. One minute it would be more full on the left and then shift to the right. But this was several days ago right before she started looking more thin. Any help would be appreciated.
 

Bonny
Breeding Stock
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 196
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 05:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Post pics if you can sounds like she is close! How is her udder?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2081
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 08:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Have the mare palpated rectally by an experienced veterinarian. Otherwise you will not know for absolutely sure. Gut movements can mimic foal movements, and non-pregnant mares can produce milk.
 

Lea Guerra
Neonate
Username: Callie21502

Post Number: 3
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 08:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From what the previous owner told me is she is a maiden mare. As far as movement goes you can see a lump pushing out on her flanks and then it will go away. I've seen it on both sides. Could that still be gut movements? I'm going to post some pics of her soon.
 

Lea Guerra
Neonate
Username: Callie21502

Post Number: 4
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 08:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are the pics of Callie. If I didn't post them right let me know.
http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q381/callie21502/callie/callietoday.jpg
This one is from yesterday
http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q381/callie21502/callie/Callie1monthafterarri vingatchicks.jpg
http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q381/callie21502/callie/1monthatchicksjustfig uredoutsheispr.jpg
These 2 are from 1 week ago.
http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q381/callie21502/callie/Callietailtoday.jpg
http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q381/callie21502/callie/babylayingonyourright side.jpg
This is her tail head yesterday.
http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q381/callie21502/callie/babylayingonyourright side.jpg
http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q381/callie21502/callie/Babylayingonyourlefts ide.jpg
These are from 1 week ago.
 

Lea Guerra
Neonate
Username: Callie21502

Post Number: 5
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 08:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Her udder looks crusty and wrinkled. I can clearly see the milk vein and there has been dried spots on the inside of her legs. I thought maybe she is filling and draining. There are also white specks around her udder. Also today I noticed her teats are pointing out and hanging lower. They were not like that yesterday.
 

Bonny
Breeding Stock
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 202
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 10:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She doesnt look pregnant to me. But you can watch her. Or have a vet check.
 

Lea Guerra
Neonate
Username: Callie21502

Post Number: 6
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 05:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, the vet came out today and my girl is definitly pregnant! I am so excited! I started looking at pics of her from when I got her to now and really looked at her belly and I can see the change.

This is her 1 mont ago
http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q381/callie21502/callie/Callie2weeksaftershec ametotexas-1.jpg

This is her a little over a week ago
http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q381/callie21502/callie/Callie1monthafterarri vingatchick-1.jpg

This is her today at vet visit
http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q381/callie21502/callie/Image0030-1.jpg

These are pics of her udder. He said since she is a maiden mare she may not fill until she foals. She's grumpy so she got pretty upset when I was trying to take these so they are a little hard to see.
http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q381/callie21502/callie/Image0033.jpg
http://i349.photobucket.com/albums/q381/callie21502/callie/Image0034.jpg

She has lost some weight lately so I wormed again today and will again in 2 weeks.
 

Diana Gilger
Breeding Stock
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 607
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 01:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She looks prego, but seems to be carrying really high in the flanks...happy foaling!
How close did the vet think she is?
 

Bonny
Breeding Stock
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 203
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 08:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well thats good news! Congrats! How far did the Vet say?



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