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Pulling progesterone at day 14?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » General Mare Questions - Volume 2 » Pulling progesterone at day 14? « Previous Next »


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JackieB
Nursing Foal
Username: Jackieb

Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 04:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok I have a question
my mare goes back for her ultrasound on March 13th to see if she took. She ovulated either really late on the 27th or around 1 AM on the 28th of February. Was bred Tuesday and Wednesday w/ AI.
He wants to pull a progesterone while she is there getting ultrasounded(if it turns out that she is).
Do you agree with this? Almost ALL of his mares are on regumate(he has like, 30). I'm really not a firm believer in all these people down here using regumate for everything. Should I let him pull progesterone? Or is it a waste of 60 bucks? This mare had a healthy filly at day 337 in 2003.
Last year when we bred her she did not take, but the semen was bad and she was under alot of stress. When the vet pulled progesterone(a different vet, different state), it came back as like 3. something. Is this normal for a non pregnant mare? I really don't think Fancy would need regumate, but what if her progesterone comes back "lower" than it should at day 14, even if the baby looks normal sized/if it doesnt?

I have already read all the articles including the 'does my mare need regumate' and stuff.. just want your guys' opinions.

(Message edited by jackieb on March 02, 2008)

(Message edited by jackieb on March 02, 2008)
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1739
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 08:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A single progesterone assay will tell you only what the level is at the moment the blood is pulled. As progesterone (and other hormone) levels vary through the course of the day, and from day to day, a single test is inadequate to determine the actual level - in fact one would have to pull 3 or 4 tests a day for 3 or 4 days in a row in order to accurately establish levels.

The other issue is that it is unclear what "low" progesterone is. 4 ng/ml has been suggested as the threshold, but other researchers have demonstrated that mares can safely maintain as low as 2 ng/ml - and even lower than that periodically (1.8 ng/ml has been seen to maintain pregnancy).

Them's the facts... the call is yours! :-)
 

JackieB
Nursing Foal
Username: Jackieb

Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 09:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the info Jos. I think it will just depend on what we see on the ultrasound whether I get her tested or not...

One more question(sorry, lol. just trying to learn as much as i can here...),
my mare was kept on lights to bring her into season starting on october 31st.
when can i stop the lights and allow her to go out at night time instead of during the day?(as i prefer during the hot months here.. florida)
And when she's pregnant(assuming she takes), do i have to put her BACK on lights starting when i put them on last year?
i'm hoping not, because we're getting a cam and putting her on marestare.. so the lights would be on ALL night. :-( *confused*
if you don't mind answering that it would be a big help.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1742
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 09:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Keep the mare under lights until about 40 days post-conception. At the point, if she loses the pregnancy she is not likely to come back into estrus until about 120 days anyway (you could check her pregnancy status at about 40 days before turning the lights off if you want, just to be sure).

Not clear why you want to turn the lights back on. Explain your intent and I'll attempt to respond...
 

JackieB
Nursing Foal
Username: Jackieb

Post Number: 15
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 10:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jos. We've scheduled ultrasounds for days 14, 35(heartbeat?), 50(gender?) and 90.. Is that about right?

Well I was told that since we brought her in so early(she was cycling with breedable follicles by december), that she would need them turned back on again to foal or she would foal late. Is this false then?
We would have to turn the lights on all night while she is on cam so people can see. Is this ok? Or does it have to be just the normal lights come on at 4:30 and go off at 11..
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1745
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, March 03, 2008 - 11:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We like to ultrasound at 14/15 days and then again before 28 days in case there was an asynchronous ovulation causing a second smaller pregnancy that was missed on the first ultrasound. Prior to 28 days one can give Prostaglandin F and start again as the mare will return to estrus. After 28 days the success rate of return to estrus is lower (and after ~35 days about 0).

Mares that foal in the height of summer, or are under lights (early in the year) will tend to have a gestational duration up to two weeks shorter than mares that foal early in the year or are not under lights (early in the year). I am unclear why your advisor would want to turn the lights back on during pregnancy given that, seeing as it would cause her to foal up to 2 weeks sooner rather than later, but maybe that is their intent. The requirement for lights would not however be related to the fact that she was under lights the preceding year, merely the desire to shorten the gestation duration by up to two weeks.
 

JackieB
Nursing Foal
Username: Jackieb

Post Number: 16
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Monday, March 03, 2008 - 01:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So just two more questions
Would we be able to see a heartbeat at day 28?

Are you saying that if we don't put her on lights, she will foal 2 weeks later than the average mare? Or that just if we put her on lights she will foal 2 weeks earlier than the average mare(or the same?). I want it to be as normal as possible and dont really want her going early or late due to something I did. So what would allow her to have the most normal gestation?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1746
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, March 03, 2008 - 02:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The heartbeat should be visible by 23 days. Note that if you did not pinpoint ovulation, you may be well advised to do your second check earlier than 28 days. See the article on twinning for a greater explanation (follow that link).

OK... on the foaling issue... you opened the door, so don't blame me if I walk in through it!!! :-)

The average normal gestational duration in the equine is 320-370 days.

So... you have 50 choices for what is "normal" with your mare!

If your mare would have foaled in June at 350 days, then putting her under lights with an earlier foal will be likely cause her to gestational duration to be closer to the 350 day mark.

If your mare would have foaled at 350 days in January, then putting her under the lights may cause her to foal as early as 336 days.

If she would have foaled at 336 days in January without being under lights, putting her under lights will probably make her foal a few days earlier, but likely not 14 days earlier, although that is a possibility.

Or it may make no difference whatsoever... :-)

Not interfering with her in any way is going to cause her to have what she sees as her normal gestational duration.
 

JackieB
Nursing Foal
Username: Jackieb

Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Monday, March 03, 2008 - 02:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jos. Before she carried the baby to 337 days with a healthy filly. So I'm guessing(or hoping rather lol), that she carries it around the same time this year.



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