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Regumate vs. P4

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 2 » Regumate vs. P4 « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Donna Harrington
Neonate
Username: Baywithchrome

Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 04:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We are having problems maintaining pregnancy with 13 year old, multiparous mare. Clean culture and cytology, IIa biopsy. Vet wants to try Regumate starting on day 3.5 on this next (and probably final for the year) cycle. Some breeding friends have suggested using P4 instead of regumate. What are the pros and cons of each? (P.S. From reading the posts here, I know the Regumate might not be necessary, but since this is our last chance this season, I'm OK to try it as long as there are no serious side effects).

Also, we discussed using Estrumate post breeding to help with any potential fluid. Do you still recommend only using it 24 hours post ovulation?

Thanks!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10822
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 09:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you want to use P4, I would suggest using "BioRelease P4 LA" from BET Pharm. This is a long-acting biorelease progesterone that only needs to be given to the mare once a week in order to maintain elevated blood levels. It's far more convenient than Regumate.

Research suggests that any prostaglandin use >24 hours post-ovulation may interfere with healthy CL function. That in turn may interfere with progesterone secretion by the CL. Seems kinda silly to use prostaglandin to the point where it interferes with progesterone secretion, and then use P4 to supplement the low levels....!!! :-)

Oxytocin, oxytocin, oxytocin, and did I say, oxytocin....
 

Donna Harrington
Neonate
Username: Baywithchrome

Post Number: 2
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 12:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jos. We confirmed ovulation approximately 30 hours after insemination on the last cycle and found fluid ...I had already given 3 oxy shots at that point (max I could give since horses are not at home.) Proceeded to give an additional four oxy shots. No baby despite perfect timing and great, less than 12 hour old semen.

Two questions...

1) Would you recommend using the Estrumate in the first 24 hours?

2) When fluid is a problem, do mares generally benefit more from a post-breed infusion or flushing with lactated ringers (in conjunction, of course, with the oxy protocol).

Sorry for the questions... just trying to figure out this crazy world of breeding.

Thanks again!
 

cathy Cook
Weanling
Username: Razmacat

Post Number: 37
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 08:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you have a mare who is having issues with fluid I would not consider Regumate. I do do a post breeding lavage on mares with fluid as to clean out the uterus so the vesicle has a clean place to grow, and lot of oxytocin up to 5 days out 3 to 4 times a day.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10823
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 10:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1) Would you recommend using the Estrumate in the first 24 hours?

This is actually discussed in the article about the oxytocin protocol. You can, but I and other researchers prefer the "wave action" of repeated oxytocin rather than a continous action of the Estrumate. What we do if sleep is getting to be a premium is use oxytocin during the day and then give a dose of Estrumate at night - it's only good for a maximum of 12 hours anyway.

2) When fluid is a problem, do mares generally benefit more from a post-breed infusion or flushing with lactated ringers (in conjunction, of course, with the oxy protocol).

This too is actually discussed in the article about the oxytocin protocol. In essence, if there is greater than 2½ cm (1 inch) depth of fluid present, the mare will probably benefit from a lavage. Under 2½ cm and oxytocin will probably be able to do the job.

I do agree with Cathy's observation above about the Regumate use - it has been seen to increase the likelihood of uterine fluid (or at least reduce the ability to clear it). I would not however keep using oxytocin out to 5 days post ovulation, as by that time the cervix should be pretty firmly closed (it's closing by about day 3½) so there's little benefit to the oxytocin after then as it won't be able clear fluid through a closed cervix, plus which it is possible that if the conceptus does manage to arrive in the uterus early and the cervix is incompetent, then the oxytocin could push the conceptus out of the uterus! :-( We certainly use oxytocin for a long duration in mares, and some mares may even receive 5-7 days of oxytocin treatment, but that is through the entire estrus and not post-ovulation (in other words, those mares that get 7 days get 3½ before ovulation and then 3½ after).

I'm adding a foot note that the number of oxytocin treatments that you did on a mare with a known delayed uterine clearance issue was insufficient. You need to treat for a couple of days prior to breeding 4x/day if fluid is present then, (possibly coupled with lavage if indicated), and then 4 times a day post-breeding until that 3½ days post-ovulation is achieved. This means that some mares may receive as many as 28 treatments during their estrus every 6 hours. Too few and it won't work.

We put highly susceptible mares on a 6/12 schedule, so they receive their oxytocin at 6 am; noon; 6 pm and midnight. On the day they are bred, they are bred at 2:00 pm - having received oxytocin at noon (it has a short half-life and will not interfere with a breeding 2 hours later) - and then get their post-breeding dose 4 hours after breeding, which is of course 6 pm - in other words they don't come off the schedule. We have seen excellent results using that protocol.
 

Donna Harrington
Neonate
Username: Baywithchrome

Post Number: 3
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 10:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jos & Cathy! You've convinced me to skip the Regumate. I'll plan on ultrasounding each day until we reach point where the cervix is firmly closed to check for fluid and do the complete oxy protocol (using estrumate only in the first 48 hours at night when I'm not at the barn).

Follow-up question... and maybe I'm a little dim this morning without my coffee on board... can you explain to me the difference between a post-breed infusion (which I've thought to date was injecting antibiotics into the uterus) and a flush (which I thought was inserting and then removing something like saline or lactated ringers into the uterus). When is one appropriate over the other? And in the case of a mare with fluid (but a clean culture & cytology), I'm assuming flushing would be the course of action unless some type of inflammation is picked up on the ultrasound during this next cycle?

Thanks again!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10824
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 11:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Flush" isn't actually a technical term, which is possibly where the confusion is arising. The term "flush" is commonly used instead of "lavage".

A uterine infusion is the placement of fluids (typcally containing antibiotics) into the uterus - in fact artificial insemination is the infusion of semen into the uterus. This infused fluid is not recaptured, but left in place and/or cleared by the mare herself.

A lavage is the placement of fluids - typically high volumes - and then the removal of that same fluid plus anything else that comes out. It comes from the French verb "Laver" - to wash.

An antibiotic infusion would be used post-breeding if there were a small amount of uterine fluid present, to assist in the clearance of pathogens that might have been introduced during breeding, and which may be causing fluid production in susceptible mares.

A lavage would be used to assist in the clearance of larger amounts of uterine fluid. Saline or LRS are commonly used and may or may not have antibiotics added.

Both an infusion and lavage would be used in conjunction with an oxytocin protocol in this situation.

All mares have inflammatory response post-breeding. It's normal. Some mares (delayed uterine clearance mares) are unable to clear the fluids produced as a result of the response. It is those mares we are dealing with here.
 

Donna Harrington
Neonate
Username: Baywithchrome

Post Number: 4
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 04:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jos - This mare is giving me grey hairs . Followed the protocol to the letter on the last cycle, but just checked not in foal. Mare had larger amount of fluid so she was lavaged with LRS and antibiotics and was on oxy every six hours until 3.5 days post ovulation. The breed itself was perfect... 2-3 hours prior to ovulation with excellent semen that was less than 12 hours old.

We're going to give her one more go this year... Any ideas/suggestions?

Thanks!
 

Torsten Tiemann
Neonate
Username: Qhbreeder

Post Number: 6
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 04:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Suggestions:
Post ovulatory aseptical flush!(Why antibiotics if mare doesnt need it)Use something that has a smoothing ,calming, effect on the uterus tissue, probably something with camomile.( Planta vet -Phlogasept is what i use post breeding it s a German Product)Maybee you can order it in Time !!
follow Oxy Prot. again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe one or two shots I.V.( I dont suggest that, thats just how we do it in correct dosage)
Wait with Regumate untill day 5 or 6 or start using P 4 150.
Got Three 20year!! old mares in foal to frozen Semen from the Us (Boomernic and SkeetsPeppy)
like this in the 3rd heat. The first two heats on all three I was just hoping to be lucky ,and didnt do anything- suddenly it was June and i had to quit hoping and do someting -well i did and succeded.

Cheers T. Tiemann
 

Donna Harrington
Neonate
Username: Baywithchrome

Post Number: 6
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 06:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm THRILLED to report that all the effort that went into this mare actually did work. Re-checked her on Monday morning to decide whether or not to order semen, and it turns out there's a 17-day pregnancy! The sneaky mare had a split ovulation with the second ovulation coming 3-4 days after the first. When we scanned her 24 hours after the initial ovulation, that follicle was seemingly stalled. Guess the mare had her own plan. Either way, I'm just euphoric. Kudos to a diligent and dedicated vet and extra carrots to the 19-year old stallion whose 4+ day old semen got my mare preggo.
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 292
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 10:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Donna,
As some of my young employees would say....
SUPER EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 951
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 11:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kudos to a diligent and dedicated vet and extra carrots to the 19-year old stallion whose 4+ day old semen got my mare preggo.

Congratulations. But don't forget to give some credit to the oxytocin!! :-)

FYI it's quite possible that the first ovulation is the one that the pregnancy was established with. People tend to get a little hung up on conceptus diameter, and we see a fair variation - even the ultrasounds are set up to indicate a 4 day variation (+/- 2 days), and then one can have a delayed conceptus development that can make it smaller than anticipated for the day.



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