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Pooling Urine

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 2 » Pooling Urine « Previous Next »


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lindy s
Neonate
Username: Daisymay

Post Number: 1
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 06:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I purchased this mare with a foal at her side last year(2011). I am planning on breeding her this year to the same stallion via live cover.
she has had 6 foals and is 16 years old this year.

5 of her foals were from frozen semen. the folllowing is what the previous owner said about her. (owner that imported her as a 3 year old)
She was always easy to breed although she resorbed the summer after having 4 pregnancies in a row. Bred her the next 2 years with frozen and she caught on first cycle both times. Last summer we bred her two cycles in July with frozen and she didn't get pregnant so I had a biopsy done since I planned to sell her and wanted to know her status. The biopsy was a grade 2A

She's been slow to pass her placenta and has typically gone 4-6 hours. One time she went a full 6 and I had the vet come and remove it. Last time I tied a wet towel into the afterbirth, to add weight, and she expelled it at 4 hours. I used to give oxytocin shots but have had that cause more problems than it solved (so much cramping Jenny wouldn't stand up so the foal could nurse).
The last couple of pregnancies we've put her on Regumate after breeding and have left her on it for the entire pregnancy. This may or may not actually be necessary/helpful.

she was sold when she was 12. The new owner tried to bred her. I didnt get all the information from her. but she would be prego at the 18 day check and open at the 45(2nd check) check. She did say she had the same problem with her other mare that was bred AI to the same stallion, this other mare never had a problem before.
She tried this i believe two years. then gave up.(too expensive and getting out of breeding, for the 2 years she used the same stallion)

decided to sell her, but bred her to her stallion to see if she would still carry a foal. She took first time, and was put on regumate. This foal was born 2010.
UPDATE
I bred her to the same stallion a few days ago, but am wondering if i didnt do something right.

She had a repro check I believe in February when she had her teeth done. Vet told me she pools urine but has no scar tissue and everything else looked great for her age. He assumed it was from having all the foals.

So took her to the stallion and made sure she urinated before bred as vets advise.
Since then i have been reading these posts and believe I should of done something to help prevent the pooling, its not so bad that she dribbles all the time, just when she urinates she then needs to urinate again since its all not coming out at one time.
So Im assuming she probably isnt pregnant but having her checked first week of June just in case. What should i have the vet look for if she isnt? or what should i do to help her become pregnant once more?(this is a different vet then the one i took her too early in the year)
This will be her last foal. Since she is now getting started under saddle to be a lesson horse.
thanks for the help in advance.
I did not put her on regumate as i think from reading all this info that regumate wont help her any. but could be wrong.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3242
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 09:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am a little uncomfortable with several aspects of what you have posted:
  • Being "slow to pass her placenta" and not using oxytocin "as it caused more problems" suggests uterine issues with contractility - and that in turn suggests a "delayed uterine clearance" mare when it comes to breeding time (which would not be surprising with a 16 YO mare that's had 6 foals). It also suggests an inappropriate dosage of oxytocin.
  • Pregnant at 18 days, not at 45 suggests embryonic death. This in turn may be related to endometritis - breeding induced or otherwise.
  • If your veterinarian seriously diagnosed that the mare was a urine pooler and then advised you to make sure that she had urinated prior to breeding (and nothing else), get another repro. vet.
  • How did the vet. determine she had no scar tissue? Did they perform another uterine (endometrial) biopsy? If not - get another repro. vet. (the only way to determine that there is endometrial scar tissue would be by biopsy, or perhaps videoendoscope if it was significant enough).
  • Urine pooling is not related to a situation where "it's not so bad that she dribbles all the time..." etc. Urine pooling is where the urine pools in the vagina caudally (tailwards) of the cervix and from there it can make it's way into the uterus. This happens as a result of tipped reproductive conformation so that when urinating, instead of the urine going outwards, some of it goes into the vagina and to the lowest point internally.
I'm not sure where to start!!

While not impossible, I would be surprised that a 16 YO mare that's had 6 foals and pools urine has a 2a biopsy score. That is the second highest category of 4, and the one that the majority of (even younger) mares will fall into. With the inflammation almost certainly present as a result of the pooling and possible delayed uterine clearance issues, I would expect a 2b at the most. If you do not get a pregnancy this time, you might want to consider another biopsy to make sure that you are not throwing good money after bad...

If you don't get a pregnancy this time, I would encourage you to look at using the oxytocin protocol (follow that link) if you breed again, as it will be likely to be beneficial. I would also encourage you to look at having a thorough breeding soundness examination performed by a veterinarian knowledgeable in equine reproduction - preferably a theriogenologist before breeding.

As far as the urine pooling situation is concerned, what needs to be done will depend upon how badly she pools. If it is a minor situation and only present during estrus, then lavages and oxytocin may be adequate to control the various issues that might arise because of it. If she is a serious pooler however, you may have to look at something more drastic such as a urethral extension surgery or perineal realignment surgery - and now you are looking at more money, so you will have to evaluate the potential value of the foal vs. costs of establishing and maintaining a pregnancy.

All you can do right now though is keep your fingers crossed and hope for the best at the pregnancy check! Let us know how it goes!! :-)
 

lindy s
Neonate
Username: Daisymay

Post Number: 2
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2011 - 08:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thank you,
Yes different vet this time.This is my first mare and first time breeding, so im new. I learned that the other vet didnt know much about repro. (after going home and researching)
so I am trying a new vet. if the mare isnt prego, then going to have her checked again.

The biopsy was after her 5th foal. I believe she started pooling after she had her 6th foal(2010).

The last owner didnt know she had a problem dripping urine. I noticed it when i brought her home(fall 2010), that she was dripping and i knew that wasn't normal. so had her checked.

So am i right about her not needing regumate..

All the stuff i have been reading and your help, probably suggests not to bother trying to bred her.
i am not breeding her to an approved stallion therefore I may make $1000 bucks after all is said and done, if nothing goes wrong with foaling. or any other extra vet bills.

Does pooling urine hurt the mare any if I am not interested in breeding her? I dont want her to always be uncomfortable or in pain.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3249
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2011 - 09:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think you are right to think long and hard about whether you want to rebreed her if she's not a quality mare that is going to produce a quality foal.

The vast majority of mares don't need Regumate (even though they get it!). There are a few who do benefit from it - those with cervical issues for example (it will tighten the cervix down). The rule of thumb with Regumate is "if you don't know why you're using it, you probably shouldn't be". In other words, if there's not a diagnosed reason for using it, don't.

If you are not trying to breed the mare, then urine pooling probably isn't going to be an issue for her. There are a lot of older mares that pool urine and it doesn't seem to have any negative effect on the mare herself. In rare instances it could cause a pyometra situation (puss in the uterus) if it were to wash a pathogen into the uterus and create an infection (remember that urine itself is generally sterile), but even the vast majority of those remain benign and without treatment and cause no issues.

Good luck!
 

lindy s
Neonate
Username: Daisymay

Post Number: 3
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2011 - 11:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

shes a ster mare and has had nice babies.
If she didnt have the pooling problem and age, i would have bred her to an approved stallion, even though my choices are very limited due to her bloodlines. I choose not to, also because the market is not ideal and having a b book purebred for half the price of a regular book baby, allows people that have always wanted a purebred but dont have the $ for one to get one.
I will keep you updated on what happens.
thank you so much for your help.
 

lindy s
Neonate
Username: Daisymay

Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2011 - 08:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

update.
she is not prego but vet didnt see any pooling when she ultra sounded her?..
having her checked to see if she has an infection. took her to the stud yesterday for breeding.
vet suggested regumate, i still said not yet, but she will be checked after she ovulates for fluid...I asked about the oxtytocin... she said we can try it if she doesnt take this time...
 

Kristen B.
Weanling
Username: Kristen_b

Post Number: 35
Registered: 06-2010
Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 07:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So...the vet wants to breed once more without oxytocin? Then use oxy two cycles from now? That's rubbish! Oxytocin is low cost-low side effect-and easy to administer. I have mares that don't pool at all and I use the oxy protocol to a "T". Just another "form of insurance" if you asked me...and way cheaper than regumate!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3284
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 08:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I didn't say it - Kristen B did!! <lol>

What I will say is "get a vet that actually knows something about equine reproduction". NO vet worth their salt will not want to use oxytocin on a mare that has failed to conceive previously. These errors by inexperienced veterinarians are costing you a lot of money! Oxytocin use is proven, published peer-reviewed research... find someone that reads the research!!
 

lindy s
Neonate
Username: Daisymay

Post Number: 6
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2011 - 06:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

so can i just use the oxytocin and not do the antibiotics?
so is this right 4 hours after breeding. then 6 hr intervals through 3 1/2 days post ovulation.

so question, she is being live covered every other day. so how would this work?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3289
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2011 - 06:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You need to determine if she is pooling urine or not. It maybe that she only does it when she is in estrus. In that event, she will need a (or several) uterine lavages to clean everything out. Urine poolers tend to cost a lot more money to get pregnant, and the success rate is lower.

Where did the antibiotics come into the picture? I don't see them mentioned above...

The oxytocin protocol is laid out in detail in the article I linked to above, but in essence, you are correct.

You want to give oxytocin no less than 2 hours prior to and no sooner than or more than about 4 hours after breeding. We put mares on a 6/12 rotation - 6 in the morning, 12 noon, 6 in the evening, midnight. If being bred, they are bred at either 8 in the morning or 2 in the afternoon.



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