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Young Maiden, Won't Take!

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 2 » Young Maiden, Won't Take! « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Kristen B.
Nursing Foal
Username: Kristen_b

Post Number: 17
Registered: 06-2010
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2011 - 11:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, here is this mare's story.

2 years ago as a 4 year old, we tried to breed her several times, but had a lot of bad luck timing-wise... ovulated on Monday 5 times in a row with a Mon, Weds, Fri, shipping schedule...threw 2 shipments away . Had two decent chances to take and didn't. We took last year off and now we're back at it again.

We did a culture/cytology first breeding, the cytology showed no inflammatory cells, sent off the culture on Friday as it started to grow a few small colonies. While waiting for culture, we bred two AI doses, one before and one shortly after ovulation, about 36 hours apart. As this was over the weekend, we still hadn't heard back from the culture, so we did a saline/timetin lavage, Settle, Oxy protocol. She never has a pooling problem, always clears everything, but hey, can't hurt!

Culture came back as corynebacterium, I still feel this was probably a contaminant as the cytology had no inflammatory cells.

Mare was open on day 16.

Last cycle she went from a lot of 2.0 follicles to having a huge 4 very quickly. Vet did not do another culture/cytology...my husband took her in, so nothing I can do at this point. We had counter to counter shipment and it looked like she was ovulating as we inseminated, so one dose at time of ovulation. Did a saline/naxcel (previous culture showed sensitivity) lavage, just 1. Settle, Oxy protocol, and started her on Regumate on day 3 post ovulation (I know Jos, but just thought I would give it a go until preg check!)

The preg check is not until next week, but if she is open...what next? I know another culture/cytology, but if it comes back clean...then what?!
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 2803
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2011 - 01:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know this is for Jos but I had an older mare that was difficult to get pregnant and to my recollection the Settle was not used right upon insemination but prior to and at least at that time (3 years ago) they had a quarantee that if after 3 doses no pregnancy they would refund the $. Fingers and toes crossed that you get a positive pregnant next week!
 

Kristen B.
Nursing Foal
Username: Kristen_b

Post Number: 19
Registered: 06-2010
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2011 - 03:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My vet mentioned that about Settle, but he said it's just two tries...wonder if he's mistaken? First cycle we used at at the time of insemination, vet did say he usually does it earlier on. Second insemination, he used it the day before when he found the 4 follicle....had intended to use it sooner, but she tried to pull a fast one on us!
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 2804
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2011 - 05:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.expectbetterresults.com/

Here is their website..you are right it is after 2 doses...but let's hope that she took this time!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3215
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2011 - 10:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You have to consider the two breeding seasons as separate. If you had bred this mare four times int he same season with no pregnancy, that would be one thing, but you haven't!

There are a variety of variables to consider - primarily mare-related (the issue most commonly is with the mare, not the stallion). A good breeding soundness examination is called for, including probably a biopsy and culture rather than a culture and cytology (it will give you more information). I would also look additionally for yeast in the culture (so a slightly different culture method).

Evaluation of the cervix and reproductive tract is important - as she hasn't had a foal, the likelihood of damage is minimal, but one can have congenital abnormalities and that possibility needs to be ruled out.

Certainly the use again of oxytocin is warranted, although the Settle has really only been demonstrated as being beneficial in the face of identified endometritis (and then with an emphasis on S. equi sub. zooepidemicus), so I'm not sure of the value of adding that to the mix at this stage.

If using a post-breeding antibiotic, we like to use Timentin, which is pretty broad-spectrum. Having said that, we don't often use a post-breeding antibiotic (but do use oxytocin regularly!).

Essentially, the recipe at this point is merely a good pre-breeding/breeding protocol. Hopefully it's a moot point though - we'll know in a few days time I guess!
 

Kristen B.
Nursing Foal
Username: Kristen_b

Post Number: 20
Registered: 06-2010
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2011 - 12:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Jan and Jos!
The vet says she has good repro conformatation, he's just blamming it on plain 'ol bad luck!
If she's not in foal, I will have him run the yeast culture, I had wondered about that...if it showed on a normal culture. The vet says if we do a biopsy, she would be done breeding for the year, as the uterus would need time to heal and that spot ends up being somewhere the conceptus can't attach...gathering that's not always the case?
I wasn't happy about using the naxcel without another culture, but the vet seemed tro think it was best and he said he had no reservations about it causing more irritation... I had also asked for LRS instead in both lavages, but they were out...again he wasn't concerned about causing more inflamation.

I must add, we are checking her on Friday the 13th!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3216
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2011 - 08:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

The vet says if we do a biopsy, she would be done breeding for the year, as the uterus would need time to heal and that spot ends up being somewhere the conceptus can't attach...gathering that's not always the case?




Not true. You can breed on the same cycle. And the conceptus doesn't "attach"!

*Alarm bells* Ding ding!!
 

Kristen B.
Weanling
Username: Kristen_b

Post Number: 22
Registered: 06-2010
Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 08:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Update on mare, not in foal
We did another culture/cytology and I asked about a biopsy. He said blood kills semen, so it's a waste of money to breed same cycle...? At least now he's not saying she would be done for the season, but he did suggest waiting until the end. I think I'll breed one more time with no biopsy, then if she's not in foal again do a biopsy next cycle and let that be her rest cycle as well since this next one will be 3 in a row. ANY OTHER IDEAS? Willing to try most anything at this point!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3227
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, May 13, 2011 - 09:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I told you the alarm bells were ringing. bell :-)

Go and find a reproductive veterinarian - preferably a theriogenologist. It may seem more expensive and time-consuming (if you have to travel) in the short term, but I think in the long term you'll find you saved money and are more likely to have a pregnant mare...
 

Kristen B.
Weanling
Username: Kristen_b

Post Number: 23
Registered: 06-2010
Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 02:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ha! I know I think the closest one is at the University 3 hours away. I'm going to at least give him a call this week. Just wish there was one closer!!
Just so I'm 100% clear...blood doesn't kill semen, and there should be no reservations in doing a biopsy and breeding same cycle? I know the vet will do it if I ask him to, he would think I'm crazy though. It would just be good to know biopsy results before I haul her three hours to find out for some reason my maiden isn't fertile
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3228
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, May 14, 2011 - 10:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Blood does render sperm infertile (although it doesn't actually kill them), but it is OK to breed on the same cycle - not immediately after doing a biopsy, but you'd need a few days to get the results anyway, so one wouldn't be breeding at the same time! In fact, an endometrial biopsy is best performed during diestrus, as at that time it is looking at the cellular condition that most closely mimics pregnancy conditions (it being under the influence of progesterone). One then follows up the biopsy with a dose of Prostaglandin F to bring the mare into estrus (in case one introduced a pathogen at the time of taking the biopsy sample), so adding the 3-5 days to come into estrus plus another 3-5 days before breeding/ovulation, one is looking at probably 6-8 days of healing time in the uterus before the mare is bred...
 

Kristen B.
Weanling
Username: Kristen_b

Post Number: 24
Registered: 06-2010
Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 03:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Update on my my mare, she has beta step, at least we got rid of the corynebacterium! I will call the vet back this afternoon, but wondered what other folks were treating with? I know he will have the list of susceptible drugs, but wondered what might be the best. Thinking this girl may need caslicks? Would it be OK to treat this cycle and breed next cycle or should we give her a rest after this "clean out" cycle? And yes, this is after 2 doses of Settle!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3243
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Get the list of antibiotics to which the β hemolytic streptococcus (most likely Strep. equi sub. zooepidemicus) is sensitive and present it here, and I'm sure someone can indicate which is the most commonly used antibiotic. There's not really any point in producing a list prior to that, as the antibiotics on that list might not be suitable!

In a perfect world, you'd treat and then retest, but in many cases time constraints dictate that you treat and breed on the same cycle. Note that the typical treatment is three intra-uterine infusions of the suitable antibiotic - don't use systemic (at least, systemic alone) as it will be inadequate, as would be a single infusion.

A Caslick's procedure may well be beneficial, but you will have to evaluate that on an individual basis - in some case with poor perineal conformation, placement of a Caslick's procedure can actually make things worse by creating a urine pooling situation.

I would also make sure that you use the oxytocin protocol when breeding as that will undoubtedly be beneficial.

So much for the Settle...!!! :-(
 

Kristen B.
Weanling
Username: Kristen_b

Post Number: 30
Registered: 06-2010
Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 01:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK...Here we go again! Vet has done a saline/Naxel lavage for 3 days, given caslicks...now says OK to breed this cycle? She has a 3.0 follicle, so we could order tonight...I just don't know if it's worth a try? Is her uterus too irritated from the lavages? Should I short cycle her and try next time...? Help!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3267
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 03:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unless the mare has a prior history of ovulating on small follicles, ordering semen on a 3 cm follicle would seem a little premature to me...

It's hard to say whether there is still inflammation present from the lavages - you could perform a swab cytology smear and find out though. The chances are fair that it would be OK - you have several days post-lavage for the uterus to quieten down before putting the semen in (unless of course you order on a 3 cm!! <lol>)
 

Kristen B.
Weanling
Username: Kristen_b

Post Number: 33
Registered: 06-2010
Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2011 - 06:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whew, just got of the phone with the vet...my husband had the facts a little wrong :-) She did have 2.5's...but still a cl, so we will give her the prostagladin this week to bring her in (for real this time!) This works out better anyway to give her uterus a break...doing my fertility dance, vet says this is his "elusive mare"
 

Kristen B.
Weanling
Username: Kristen_b

Post Number: 39
Registered: 06-2010
Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2011 - 10:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thought I would update here-- This mare is FINALLY in foal after 4 breedings! We did do a biopsy, came back as grade 1, but her culture came back with strep and a gram negative bacteria. We lavaged once with timetin, once with amikacin, waited 1 day and bred at the time of ovulation with cooled shipped. We followed up 6 hours later with another timetin lavage, oxytocin protocol and 4 days of gentocin IM. Whew, glad that is over, now just waiting for my perfect little filly :-)
 

Kristen B.
Weanling
Username: Kristen_b

Post Number: 41
Registered: 06-2010
Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2011 - 11:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Update again....mare lost the baby before the 30 day check. Did a dmso lavage last cycle and short cycled. I have switched stallions for one last try this season. Going to do the Timentin flush 8 hours post breeding again, oxytocin and gentocin IM for 4 days. Any other suggestions?!?! Fingers, toes and everything else crossed.
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 2833
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2011 - 12:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Everything crossed for you!!!...
 

Kristen B.
Weanling
Username: Kristen_b

Post Number: 42
Registered: 06-2010
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2011 - 11:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This girl is in foal again at 15 days...praying that she holds this one!!! The DMSO definitely did something, seems the post breeding antibiotic flush and gentocin IM for a few days post breeding works for this girl...now let's just hang onto it!!
 

Kim Peavy
Breeding Stock
Username: Lovemysinbad

Post Number: 614
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Monday, October 03, 2011 - 07:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, it seemed to work for my mom's mare. She tried every single month this year, Feb- July to get hers in foal, she did the DMSO and she finally got pregnant on the last try in July. She is still holding, on regumate. Good luck to you :-)



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