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Explain reasons for flushing?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 2 » Explain reasons for flushing? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Tina
Yearling
Username: Hotti

Post Number: 78
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 06:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a mare that wont breed to the stallion she had the foal weaned because i presumed it may have been lactational anestrus...nothing!! she was ultrasounded and had a cl present so we PG's her...nothing (did that twice). So she has been running with stallion on her own now for weeks..nothing. I have been told a flush will bring her around in two weeks..how the hell is that possible? PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME PLEASE ON THE FLUSHING PROCESS AND REASONS FOR!
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3738
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 07:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know that Jos will be an expert at explaining the flush to you. And I'm interested to see how this works out for you. Live to learn. Also, Jos, do you believe (in this particular situation) that maybe sending Mr Studly into the breeding shed sporting nothing but a bowtie and a smile will help the mare come around?
 

Holly
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 2353
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 08:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tina best wishes for your mare.

Diana...LMAO!!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3110
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 09:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Many years ago, before the development of commercially available prostaglandin, the method for bringing mares into heat (estrus) was to perform a uterine lavage ("flush"). Years later, research demonstrated that the lavage caused irritation of the uterine lining (endometrium) which in turn caused a release of prostaglandin. The prostaglandin release destroyed the CL and caused the mare to return to estrus.

In other words, performing a lavage will essentially do nothing as far as causing her to return to estrus that you have not already done with the prostaglandin dose you have already given her.

Having said that, it is important to bear in mind that although you visualised a CL per ultrasound, that does not necessarily mean that the CL was functional. It may well have been a CL that was formed on foal heat, and then there had been no subsequent CL formed as a result of there having been no further estrus. You could determine if this is the case by performing a blood-progesterone assay. I would not be surprised to find that the CL is not functional. There are some mares who seem to be "every other year mares" no matter what one does.

Probably the best plan of action would be to remove the mare from the stallion's presence and ultrasound her along with the progesterone assay. In the event that you find progesterone present, then use prostaglandin to short cycle, and then breed in-hand when the ultrasound demonstrates she should be receptive.

Diana: while breeding in-hand is likely to improve matters, my personal experience with presenting with only a bow tie is that rather than encouraging sexual responses, it results in hilarity among all observers! :-)
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3739
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 09:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HAHAHAHAHA!! Man, I love this place....sorry, Jos, just couldn't keep myself from asking LOL
 

Holly
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 2354
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 05:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hahahaha, What a good sport Jos!
 

Tina
Yearling
Username: Hotti

Post Number: 79
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 07:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

~CRACK UP~.....
So Im sitting here at my computer looking across their paddock and i am watching her grooming him and him her..she is kinda swaying her butt on ocassion and he has an erection (obviously enjoying the attention) . He attempts to nip her front leg as he does when he is courting and she steps back with her ears slightly back..from here you would think she looked kinda husky for it but i bet if i go down she will look to me for hay and chase him off!
I will be in contact with my vet today some time and discuss the above mentioned.
Jos what causes a mare to keep the CL making her only foal every second year?
Apparently she was not always like this (she is 8yr old)
Really is rather frustrating as she is leaving it late in our breeding season (western australia)...this will be our last foal from her and then she is mooved on. grrrrrr!
 

Tina
Yearling
Username: Hotti

Post Number: 80
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 07:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yep...she has now chased him away..he must have groomed too hard!!
 

Tina
Yearling
Username: Hotti

Post Number: 81
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2011 - 08:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have found myself a EQUINE REPRO SPECIALIST..im taking this mare to him on thursday. Ill let you know how i go.
 

Holly
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 2356
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2011 - 11:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good idea Tina, def keep us posted.
 

Tina
Yearling
Username: Hotti

Post Number: 82
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 06:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ok..she had a 3.5cm follicle with no other problems or reasons why she shouldnt demonstrate heat to stallion...so we are changing our management of this mare.
ultrasounding her again each day until she should be receptive then serve her by hand with twitch if need be.
Ill keep you posted as to how we go here!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3115
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 09:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Be aware that mares can and do develop follicles - and indeed can even ovulate follicles - even though they are not in heat!!

Presence of a follicle alone is not adequate enough an indication that the mare is ready to be bred. She needs to have other pointers in place such as a relaxed cervix and/or uterine edema per ultrasound. Force breeding the mare when she is not in estrus will be bad...

As far as your prior question about why a mare can be an every-other-year mare, the answer is that we really don't know, but it's something hormonal.
 

Tina
Yearling
Username: Hotti

Post Number: 83
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2011 - 11:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I assume the fello I took her to checked all this..he travels the world doing this! I also took my personal vet down on the trip and they discussed it in full.
please let me assure you that I certainly wont allow any raping on this farm and dont intend to either. However a simple twitch is the most restraint i will use, I do not believe in tying down mare so to speak!

I have teased her thismorning and she is not overly fussed.
yesterday On the ultrasound i saw a very nicely round 3.5cm follicle, it was not flat in shape and did not have a teardrop appearance yet. We did tease her with the fellos Fresian stallion and she was not as laid back as she was today but he was a very heavy teaser, mine is far more polite and gentle.

I just love this site Jos..keep up the awsome advice
 

Tina
Yearling
Username: Hotti

Post Number: 84
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 12:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She seems far worse today..irritable and looking rather peeved off actualy. IM ALMOST READY TO GIVE UP. Should I bother this mare further or give up?
We have not US this mare again, hoping the follicle just matures and ovulates as normal.
Jos can you give me the average time the follicle goes from 3.5 to 4cm or ovulation (I thought it was about 3 days) please?
If i sound a little agitated im sorry..this mare is the best mare on the place and being the most difficult.
Just tell me to "toughen up princess"
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3119
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 12:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As I said above, mares can and will develop follicles during diestrus, and I suspect that may be what is happening here. With a silent estrus mare, about the only practical way to determine what is going on is to repeatedly ultrasound her. If you are sure that she is ovulating, then using P&E may be a solution.

Jos can you give me the average time the follicle goes from 3.5 to 4cm or ovulation (I thought it was about 3 days) please?

Nope. Can't do it. And neither can anyone else!

Follicular growth occurs at an average rate of between 3 and 5 mm per day. The trouble is that some mares will ovulate on a 3½ cm follicle, while others may go to as much as 7 cm (or more). Then on top of that, there will be other follicles which do not ovulate but regress and disappear.

"Toughen up Princess" - you're gonna have to ultrasound again if you want to know what's going on!!
 

Tina
Yearling
Username: Hotti

Post Number: 85
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 07:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HAHA..cheers Jos. "I feel better now"!!!!
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3753
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 11:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OMG, that has to go in our "Best of Jos" thread......because "Toughen up Princess" is DEFINITELY the best advice I've ever heard Jos give!! hahahahahaah!!!! I just spit soda all over my computer when i read it. Thanks! :-)
 

Tina
Yearling
Username: Hotti

Post Number: 87
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 06:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hope your computer is fine Diana..haha!
This mare still wont show..vet gone away for polo-x tornament til end of week.
I was hoping this would just happen..but..hey..this sort of thing happens alot to me.
* twins found at day 66 last year..aghh.
* Mare showing heat through entire pregnancy This year...ugggh
Its becomming normal for things to not be normal HAHA the things I have learnt have far outweighed the pains in the butts!
 

Tina
Yearling
Username: Hotti

Post Number: 88
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 10:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have had a win.
I twitched the mare and teased her for about 10minutes then ~"BANG"~ She realised "oh" and was in full blown heat.
She was mated and returned to her paddock and him to the stallion yard, until tommoro when ill mate her again.

Jos..can some mares let their dominance get in the way of allowing the stallion to mate?

This seems to be a classic case of "Im the BOSS..never come near me" until she was restrained lightly and then nature took hold of her (she is all over him now standing at the fence looking over at him and calling to him, winking, rubbing and looking very inlove!!!!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3123
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2011 - 12:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you bred her tonight and the stallion has normal fertility, you do not need to do so again for 48 hours. In fact, breeding daily will be likely to reduce the chances of pregnancy, not enhance it, as each time you breed you will be introducing pathogens (it can't be helped, it's just a fact) and on top of that, the mare has to clear the post-breeding inflammatory response from her uterus and repeatedly breeding her will irritate it more.

Certainly aggressive mares can resist the advances of a stallion they dislike for some reason. Sometimes we (people) tend to forget that they are sentient beings with thought processes (well, OK, some of them have thought processes!! :-)) and likes and dislikes. I'm not suggesting anthropomorphization but a happy medium should be struck!
 

Tina
Yearling
Username: Hotti

Post Number: 89
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2011 - 02:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

well...i consider him to be very sexy but obviously she does not!!!!!!
Obviously she likes tall dark and handsome cos the last stallion had no worries, this stallion is a palomino although taller than the last...haha!

Thankyou Jos for your advise it has been fun!



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