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Cyst or Pregnancy?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 2 » Cyst or Pregnancy? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Molly M.
Breeding Stock
Username: Molly

Post Number: 164
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2010 - 10:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well crud. Took my 19 year old mare to the vet today to be checked. He did a whole lot of looking around in there. Bottom line, there is a 90% chance she is NOT bred and has a golf-ball size cyst in there. Not only is she probably not bred, this cyst is located in a such a way as to possibly make it difficult for her to be bred
in the future. :-( I am disappointed. Sooo, I can have her checked again in a few weeks to be absolutely sure, but he said he is almost positive and saw what looked like the attachments the fibroid would have. That is not how he said it,can't think of it now, maybe fibers running through it.

Now for that 10% chance she IS bred. He said if so by size it was a 22 day fetus. It has actually been about 33 days since she came back from the stud, so pretty shakey on the 10%. After a month at the stud, she appeared to still be in heat, though not a strong one, when we came to pick her up.

He thought A.I. might be a way to go next year. He thinks probably the cyst is blocking entry to the semen. If I have to do A.I. my stud of choice is probably out. I will have to check with the stallion owner and see.

I have been told that sometimes it is very difficult to tell the difference between a cyst and an early pregnancy. The vet himself said he was confused at first.

Should I give up hope for a foal next spring, or?
 

Joyce Ensley
Weanling
Username: Goda_15

Post Number: 23
Registered: 07-2010
Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2010 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If I were you I would take her back to the vet in a few weeks and if she is not then I hope you find a good broodmare to bare a great foal.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2991
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2010 - 10:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Certainly have the mare checked again, although the size difference is strongly suggestive of it being a cyst. I am taking it that you did not have the mare ultrasounded prior to breeding? If you did, was the cyst not noted and measured at that point? As you now understand, doing so is an important part of a pre-breeding work up on older mares!

A cyst such as you describe (if that is what it is) is not in itself the kiss of death to future pregnancies if that is the only issue. The cyst may be able to be manually or mechanically reduced prior to breeding by a veterinarian experienced in equine reproduction. The most likely issue is not prevention of passage of the sperm into the uterus (they are very small!!) but rather the passage of post-breeding uterine fluids out of the uterus, and/or possible prevention of complete closure of the cervix (allowing passage of pathogens into the uterus and/or the conceptus out of the uterus).

If the mare proves to not be pregnant, find an experienced equine reproductive veterinarian - preferably a theriogenologist - and start early next year.
 

Molly M.
Breeding Stock
Username: Molly

Post Number: 165
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 18, 2010 - 03:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jos. That gives me some more questions to ask my vet. He has his own breeding farm, so he is experienced as far as u/s and how many mares he sees.

I sold this mare's last foal to Germany. He was born in 07, so I think the last time she was u/s prior to this was in '06. Fortunately she happens to be a good saddle mare also, and I plan for her to spend her life with us regardless.
 

Molly M.
Breeding Stock
Username: Molly

Post Number: 166
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 06:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos, are there any other options if the cyst is causing clearance problems and cannot be reduced?

Thanks,

Molly
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2994
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2010 - 08:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If it is large enough that it is interfering with the cervix, then it must be close to the cervix, and it would be unlikely that it could not be reduced with relative ease.
 

Molly M.
Breeding Stock
Username: Molly

Post Number: 167
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 09:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have been thinking about this situation a lot. This mare had strong cycles in the spring and then inexplicably went rather quiet in June, which was when I was ready to take to her stud. She has also been riding great this year, not nearly as subject to heat cycles. It has usually been obvious when she was in heat. Have you ever known a cyst to sort of the fool the body too and influence heat cycles, maybe even fool the body that it is pregnant? Last year and this year both, she had milk in June.

I am trying to weigh how badly I want one more foal from her against the expense and trouble to get her in foal. In my hearts of hearts, I would love to have a filly from her with that particular stud. But we all know there are no guarantees on that. I could breed her a few more times and still not get that. I sure wasn't expecting her to have trouble getting in foal. I had a mare once who had her first foal at 19.

Molly
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2995
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 10:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nope. Wouldn't happen. At least not in my experience, or anyone else's that I know of. Almost certainly if you had been ultrasounding you would have been detecting ovulations, so she hadn't shut down. Ambient temperature can play a part, so it's more likely that the weather got too hot and enthusiasm for being bred dropped accordingly...
 

Molly M.
Breeding Stock
Username: Molly

Post Number: 168
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2010 - 10:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos, the heat sure worked on the stallion too. LOL He's no spring chicken and very sensible. When I went to pick her up, she acted like she was in heat then. The owner pasture breeds and the mare had been turned out with the stallion, but for the sake of things we put him in one more time with her. It was so hot and right in the middle of the day. He was having none of it. LOL He kept trying to turn around and come back into the shelter, but when his owner insisted, he went out, said hello to the mare and promptly took a good roll in the dirt. I've no doubt it was in part due to the fact that he had covered her earlier that day, but it was rather comical. It probably would have been a lot funnier if it hadn't been my mare.

Molly
 

Molly M.
Breeding Stock
Username: Molly

Post Number: 169
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, August 30, 2010 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, some more questions. If I were to have this cyst reduced, would this be something I should have done yet this year, or would it be better to wait until next spring?

Also if the mare IS having fluid clearance issues and we remove the cyst and can live cover her, should I probably encourage the breeder to hand breed, or at least not leave them together for more breeding than strictly neccessary?

Molly
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3007
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - 01:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wait until next spring to evaluate and reduce (if necessary).

AI would be a better option for this mare if (and it is likely she does) she has a delayed uterine clearance problem. You stand a far better chance with a competently performed minimum contamination breeding by AI than you do live cover. If you must go with live cover, then you should certainly limit breedings to a minimum. More is definitely not better with these mares... :-(
 

Molly M.
Breeding Stock
Username: Molly

Post Number: 170
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, July 11, 2011 - 04:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, this year's update. The mare still has the cyst. I have had two different vets tell me the cyst probably won't interfere with her conceiving. One checked her in May via ultrasound. He just didn't give her very good odds of conceiving due to her age (20) and how long it's been since she had a foal, 2007.

I basically got another opinion, but he didn't look at her, but thought the cyst should probably be reduced before breeding.

Due to one factor and another it is late to be breeding her, but I've made an appointment tomorrow with the vet who looked at her in the spring. I want him to reduce the cyst and hopefully he will, and check where she is in her cycle at the moment.

Should I strongly encourage him to reduce it? Or just go with what he says?

Lori
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3347
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 01:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is probably best to go with the recommendation of the attending veterinarian who can actually evaluate the situation. If you are not completely comfortable with that and feel that the other vet has a better recommendation, have the two talk and come to a common consensus as the reasons for treatment or not.
 

Molly M.
Breeding Stock
Username: Molly

Post Number: 171
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2011 - 02:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jos.

Goldie saw my vet today. The bad news, she has just finished ovulating in the last couple days. I had no clue at all. I don't have any studs around to tease with. The good news is we can short cycle her.

He looked the cyst over again. It is at the juncture of the cervix and the uterine body. What he forgot when he looked at it in the spring was that last year that cyst was about golf ball size and now it is dime size. He really doesn't think that it should interfere with breeding or uterine clearance, though with her age and all the foals she has already had, she likely has a delayed uterine clearance anyway. So he gave me a shot of oxytocin to bring up with her when we take her that can be given post breeding.

I figure if we try this year and don't get a pregnancy, I'll give up and start looking for a filly by that sire, though honestly, he doesn't breed a lot of mares anymore and finding someone who wants to part with a daughter is difficult.
 

Karen Knight
Nursing Foal
Username: Sparkskaren

Post Number: 20
Registered: 08-2010
Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 07:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know it is more money but if your mare is still cylcing can you not do ET with her?
 

Molly M.
Breeding Stock
Username: Molly

Post Number: 172
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 08:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is pretty high tech for me. LOL I am breeding in hopes of a filly to keep.

What kind of money does that run into these days?

Lori
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3350
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 07:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

He really doesn't think that it should interfere with breeding or uterine clearance, though with her age and all the foals she has already had, she likely has a delayed uterine clearance anyway. So he gave me a shot of oxytocin to bring up with her when we take her that can be given post breeding.

I figure if we try this year and don't get a pregnancy, I'll give up and start looking for a filly by that sire




You want to use the oxytocin no sooner than 4 hours after breeding, and the dosage should be no more than 20 IU (which is probably 1 ml if you are in North America). On top of that, a single dose is inadequate - read the oxytocin article for more information - and print it out and give it to your vet if you need to!! :-)

If you don't reduce the cyst this year, and don't get a pregnancy, why not try reducing it early next year and giving it one or two more goes before giving up? I dealt with a mare years ago that had a golf-ball sized cyst just inside her uterus and she did not get pregnant until we put our hand in through the cervix and squeezed the cyst until it burst. We then bred the mare and get her pregnant - next year, squeezed again and pregnant again! That cysts was pedunculated (on a "stem") so it was easy to burst that way - don't know if yours is or not.
 

Molly M.
Breeding Stock
Username: Molly

Post Number: 173
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 10:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jos! I will look at that. I kind of think he was giving me the oxytocin to humor me. But I could probably talk him into giving me more doses. I have to go pick up a health certificate tomorrow.

I don't know why he is so resistant to reducing the cyst, especially when I keep asking him about it. It doesn't sound like it would be that hard to do, but hers has shrunken to dime sized presently and he must just not think it's big enough to cause any problems. He even said her cervix was still soft, so he could have done it.

Molly
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3352
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2011 - 10:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cysts are rarely a problem, except when they are... :-)

Chances are good therefore that there is no need to reduce. I suspect that the DUC is more of an issue.



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