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What could be happening-Jos?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 2 » What could be happening-Jos? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Veronique Dumas
Nursing Foal
Username: Formosus

Post Number: 19
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, July 26, 2010 - 11:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mare was scanned with a normal looking 25 days old embryo and vesicule. When checked at 35 days: nothing.
Uterine tone is very firm, the uterine horn are small, no sign of edema, no sign of fluid in the uterus, cervix is closed tight. On day 37 normal looking follicules about ready to ovulate (one 33, and one 47mm).

So, we are prior to the 35 days endometrial cups formation. No fluid or anything tells me abortion occured a few days ago.

Any idea when her body will realize she is no longer pregnant and she will cycle again. Or is she still pregnant and we just can't find the conceptus? Unlikely I know.

I would just like to know if I have a chance to rebreed or not.

Same question on the hormonal manipulation site: would P&E work at this point?

Thanks Jos!!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2965
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2010 - 11:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Follicles would be present at that stage even if she is pregnant. Commencement of eCG secretion/formation of endometrial cups on day 35 is not an absolute. It could happen a few days earlier or a few days later, consequently, if she has indeed lost the pregnancy, failure to return to estrus is a quite possible sequela.

The pregnancy should be distinctive by day 37 per ultrasound and hard to miss. Having said that, particularly in view of the fact that if eCG secretion has commenced there is really little you can do but wait, I would recommend checking the mare again in 5-7 days or so. By that stage, you should be seeing uterine edema if she is coming back into estrus, the pregnancy if it was hiding, or absolutely nothing in the event that the eCG has kicked in. Note that the presence of a new CL will not be particularly indicative of anything, as if she is pregnant and/or has eCG secretion happening that is a sequela; or if she is not pregnant and is still cycling (but you missed it) she may have ovulated anyway.

Remember that if there is a large follicle and no apparent pregnancy, checking the cervix vaginally to see if it is relaxed can be a useful indicator - but don't poke your finger into the cervix in case she is pregnant and the pregnancy missed!

P&E will only work if the mare is cycling and that means that you need to know if the eCG is an issue, so all of the above applies. It will not "restart" a non-cycling mare.
 

Veronique Dumas
Nursing Foal
Username: Formosus

Post Number: 20
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2010 - 11:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jos
I know it is not a simple case here, were are so close to the 35 days.

Now with her cervix closed if the pregnancy had been terminated shouldn't I see something?
Fluids, small vesicule with no heartbeat?

Where did it go?? I know they don't "absorb".

The turgidity of the uterus is due to what hormone? Would giving her lutalyse help (if she did not yet have those endometrial cups) as it would stop the CL-either way I have to wait a little while for it to work.
Her cervix is closed and she is not displaying heat.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2967
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2010 - 01:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While there is no such thing as "resorption" of an embryo/fetus, at the early (embryonic) stages, much of the structure consists of yolk sac which is fluid-filled. When that sac ruptures, although the tissues associated with the pregnancy (embryo and sacs) cannot be reabsorbed, the liquid portion can be, hence the size of the structure decreases dramatically. The remaining tissue, in the absence of the associated fluid structures, can be difficult to differentiate from the surrounding uterine tissue, and will usually remain there until the cervix relaxes when the mare returns to estrus (by which time it is significantly disintegrated and may not be observed being passed).

The uterine tone is associated with progestins and estrogens. Before too much longer tone will start to decrease regardless of pregnancy status, although it will still remain more toned than a estrus uterus. This is not primarily a reflection of the hormonal profiles, but rather a matter of practicality as the uterus increases in size with the increased diameter of the pregnancy. By around 100 days of pregnancy, progesterone levels have dropped significantly and indeed by 120 days will usually be close to zero, so although not primary, there is an associated effect seen there to some extent.

Giving Prostaglandin F will be of little benefit if the eCG levels are elevated. You can try repeated doses over the course of several days (multiple doses per day) but this is rarely effective, with the result often being lycing of the CL's present, but a failure to return to fertile estrus. Bear in mind that doing that if she is pregnant will be likely to terminate the pregnancy.

If it were me, I'd check again with u/s in around 5 days and see what's happening...
 

Veronique Dumas
Weanling
Username: Formosus

Post Number: 21
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2010 - 02:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks so much Jos!
I will check again in five days.
But by then the follicules will have ovulated however so I'm not sure what if anything I will be able to find.
I really don't think I can miss a 37 days pregnancy...I found all my other mares 15, 18 and 21 and 25 days pregnancy so I'm fairly sure I did not "miss" it.
I shall update the post, if anything to provide info for the next person in the same sitauation.
Thanks again Jos for sharing your expertise.
As much as I love this, it can be so frustrating at time....
 

Veronique Dumas
Weanling
Username: Formosus

Post Number: 22
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2010 - 12:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just wanted to add that her cervix is in fact slim,short and closed in the face of those two large follicules. So clearly *something* is preventing her from coming into heat.
 

Veronique Dumas
Weanling
Username: Formosus

Post Number: 23
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2010 - 05:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

7 days later:
Uterus showing just the slightest hint of edema, nothing detected in the uterus so we gave her a shot of prostaglandin.
Her biggest follicule looked to be about 25mm we shall check her in two days and see if she is coming into heat with a breedable cycle.
 

Veronique Dumas
Weanling
Username: Formosus

Post Number: 25
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, August 06, 2010 - 01:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Update, two days after the prostaglandin shot mare now had good edema, one 35mm follicules and the cervix is soft.
I've ordered semen and will be breeding in 30 hours or so.
 

Veronique Dumas
Weanling
Username: Formosus

Post Number: 26
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 03:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Update again.
We bred the mare: two nice 38mm follicules-one on each side, maximum edema. Gave a shot of Chorulon.
Semen is known to be long lived so fingers are crossed. I will check her again in 17 days.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2978
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2010 - 07:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good luck! :-)
 

Veronique Dumas
Weanling
Username: Formosus

Post Number: 27
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - 10:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Update,
Tonight I ultrasounded the mare: one nice 17 days old vesicule. Textbook.
Tanks Jos-All went well!!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3002
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 12:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Congratulations! :-)
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 2744
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 12:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Most excellent news Veronique! Now the long wait begins!
 

Veronique Dumas
Weanling
Username: Formosus

Post Number: 30
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2010 - 01:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Update:
Scanned the mare and found the healthy looking 45 days pregnancy this time around.

I suspect that in the first try she held on too long to that ova so that when it was released it was not in the best of shape.
It got fertilized but something was not quite right. I just wished she had lost it earlier..
This time she ovulated as expected and this pregnancy held on.



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