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Cant get Maiden Mare pregnant!!

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 2 » Cant get Maiden Mare pregnant!! « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Megan McVay
Neonate
Username: Mmcvay

Post Number: 1
Registered: 05-2010
Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 03:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a 14 year old American Warmblood maiden mare. I have never bred her before due to showing etc. I am having semen shipped in from Idaho to Oklahoma. We bred her all last summer and she never took. After every breeding she would develope a Cyst (never more than one). This year we have bred once and no baby and got another cyst. Her cycles have been great and she teases very easily and is very easy to tell if shes in. The mare is healthy etc and has been deemed breadable by my vet. The semen is alive and in good condition. Seems like we have tried everything! This is my last summer to try the AI so i would REALLY appreciate any help/advice I can get!!!
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 2718
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 07:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would try the Oxytocin protocol. Perhaps she is having clearance issues. My mare was a maiden at 1 when we bred. She had cysts but it did not keep her from getting pregnant but her response to a "semen" did...it is on this website. I know how frustrating this can be...hang in there.
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 2721
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 07:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/oxytocin.htm
 

Megan McVay
Neonate
Username: Mmcvay

Post Number: 2
Registered: 05-2010
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 10:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We used Oxytocin through all of our attempts last year and still no success. We tried to give her the benefit of the doubt this year just to see how she would do etc. So looks like we should probably put her back on just in case. I sure do appreciate the advice though! I am open to anything at this point so keep the advice coming! Thanks so much for the post Jan
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2865
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 11:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tell me more about this "cyst" that kept appearing... when did it arrive, and how did it disappear?
 

Megan McVay
Neonate
Username: Mmcvay

Post Number: 3
Registered: 05-2010
Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 04:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The cysts come about 15-25 days after breeding. We have ultrasounded mult times to make sure it isnt a baby etc. They mostly appear on her ovaries. The last one was in the uterus. We usually give her a shot (not sure what it is called right now)to "sluff the cyst" (as my vet put it) We gave her a shot to short cycle her and I was told that would also take care of the cyst, Im kind of unclear on this portion but that has what we have done so far. After we give the shot we re-ultrasound and things are good. when she starts to show signs of coming in again, the cyst is gone and she has good follicles once again. Then we breed, ultrasound at day 15, there is no baby, and then she will start to show signs of coming in then she will stop, we will ultrasound because we think we might have a baby since she went out very abruptly and thats when we find the cysts etc. Thats usually the way things happen...Im so confused and frustrated at this point...
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2868
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 12:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm having some problems with this scenario... :-(

First off, mares don't typically just produce cysts and then have them disappear. On top of that, cysts on the equine ovaries are very rare.

Let's play a little game... which one is the pregnancy and which one is the endometrial cyst?

Pregnancy?

Pregnancy?


As you can see, they look identical, looking (and measuring) like 14 days pregnancies. The bottom one however is a cyst, not a pregnancy.

I have this horrible sinking feeling that all is not right with what you are telling me is going on... have you perhaps tried breeding and then going somewhere else for a pregnancy check?
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3409
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 01:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

that was going to be my question too!! Sounds to me like theres a possibility you may be flushing baby...not cysts
 

Audrey Crosby McLellan
Weanling
Username: Accphotography

Post Number: 30
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 03:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was thinking that too Diana. How sad that would be! :'-(
 

Megan McVay
Neonate
Username: Mmcvay

Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2010
Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 01:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do know for 100% sure the cysts were on her ovaries last year. So this year would have been the only time we could have accidentally mistaken a pregnancy for a cyst. During the ultrasound this year I was there and the vet said "most people would mistake this for a pregnancy but it isnt..." I didnt ask how he knew that and I regret it and prob need to call and ask why.I did see the ultrasound screen and it did not look like the above pictures. It was more elongated (not sure if that matters, im very new to all this) We will be breeding again probably tuesday, so if we run across this scenario again what do I need to have done (other than an unltrasound) to make sure it is not a pregnancy??
 

Megan McVay
Neonate
Username: Mmcvay

Post Number: 5
Registered: 05-2010
Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 01:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And yes I have had 2 different vets checking her...Thanks for all your feedback. Sorry if it is a little confusing, because it is all very confusing to me at this point
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2873
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 05:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One maps the position and size of uterine cysts before breeding. That way, as cysts don't just appear and get to the same size as a 14 day conceptus in 14 days, one will know if the object one is seeing is a pregnancy or not. If there was nothing there 14 days ago, and there is a 14 day pregnancy there 14 days later, it's a pretty safe bet it's a 14 day pregnancy...

The next point of confirmation is about 23 days after ovulation, when a heartbeat should be visible per ultrasound. Cysts don't get heartbeats... :-)

I'm still hinky on the whole thing. It just doesn't sound right. How do you know the "cysts" identified last year were on the ovaries? The only thing that is going to appear that rapidly and to that size on an ovary is a follicle, and that leaves one wondering why it's being referred to as a cyst. As noted above, one rarely sees cysts on an equine ovary, and even if one did, there's no reason why it would resolve with an ovulation-promoting drug (unless it's a follicle) or a luteinizing drug (unless it's a follicle or a pregnancy)...

Good luck.
 

Holly
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 2050
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 05:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am also thinking... isnt here a stage where the embryo elongates? what day does that usually start?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2874
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 10:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The conceptus loses regularity of shape at day 17. The embryo proper is not visible until about day 21 or 22.

Take a look at our article about embryonic images for more details.
 

Ad TB
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Ajvtbs

Post Number: 1044
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 06:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm thinking what your vet is describing as a cyst is also a pregnancy and by giving her a PG the vet is "sluffing" the pregnancy not the cyst. Cysts do not appear and disappear, I agree with Jos, our vet maps all our mares cysts prior to covering so that they cannot be mistaken for a pregnancy. These cysts are always there and do not grow or disappear. I'd be getting advice from another vet. The "cysts" on her ovaries sound like follicles
 

Holly
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 2051
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 06:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Jos. The pictures were very helpful.

Megan in response to your question " so if we run across this scenario again what do I need to have done (other than an unltrasound) to make sure it is not a pregnancy??"
I would suggest waiting to intervene. I am by no means an expert but based on what has been said here I would Ultra Sound at day 16 and then do nothing till day 23, then Ultra Sound again. It really sounds like its a possibility that your pregnancy is being terminated. IF it isnt a pregnancy you only miss one cycle. Its at least worth a try.
Best Wishes.
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3414
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 08:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Megan, while I am certain your vet excels in some areas of his job description, I worry that on "identifying an embryo on Ultra Sound" day, he was absent....it doesnt' really matter that you have 2 checking on her, if neither of them are reproduction specialists or know nothing about how embryos form. If you find yourself in this situation again......LEAVE THE VETS OFFICE WITH YOUR 'CYST'. Wait to see if it develops a heartbeat, and wait for your mare to come back into heat normally. This is really the only way to know. OR, find a vet specializing in equine repro.
 

Megan McVay
Neonate
Username: Mmcvay

Post Number: 6
Registered: 05-2010
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 04:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am so happy to announce my mare was declared in foal today!!!! YAY!!!! Thanks for you help!!
 

Brittany Hindes
Yearling
Username: Bhindes

Post Number: 90
Registered: 08-2009
Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 - 07:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am so happy for you. Yay. I am glad everything worked out. Good luck in the 2011 foaling season.
 

Rita Pippin
Neonate
Username: Rita1990

Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2010
Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - 10:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I NEED HELP!!!
Ive owned my maiden paint mare for over 2 years, shes 16 this year. In those 2 years she has never shown any signs of heat, but I always thought mabye it was just because I didnt have an intact stallion around her.We arranged to have her bred live cover locally, since I didnt know when she would come in we dropped her off and she was teased every day for 11 days before she started showing signs. She was bred the 2nd through the 6th day of her cycle and went out on the 7th. But during the 4th and 5th breeding there was some blood that was expelled from her during the cover. We brought her home, and scheduled an US for the 15th day post breeding. About the 11th day post breeding one side of her udder swelled up, became hard but not hot. I thought mabye hormones from pregnancy? this only lasted about 12 hours...
To my dismay the US showed no pregnancy but my vet found a 'mass' as she called it that was kind of honey combed shaped on her LO. She told us that she was within 4-5 days of another ovulation and suggested we take her back to the breeder to try again before running a series of tests or waiting to see if the 'mass' regressed. Knowing that the end of normal breeding season and beginning of our show season was moving closer, we took her right back not to miss this coming ovulation.
She was once again teased everyday fro about 8 days, nothing. So we had a different vet come out to do another US kind of as a second opinion. The breeder was wondering if a viable pregnancy had been missed in the first US.. This time she was still declared open, but the 'mass' was gone AND it showed that the awaited ovulation had taken place with absolutely no signs when teased at all!! So she suggested giving a lutalyse shot to bring her back in on a fast heat cycle while we had her right there. Thats the route we took,
3 days after the lute was given she was in heat, 4th day standing, and we bred this time every other day to avoid the blood which the first vet seemed to think was irritation from constant breedings. She was out by day 8 and we brought her home. Scheduled another 15 day post breeding US and it showed no foal again, still no 'mass' but this time her uterus was full of fluid... The vet has now suggested a uterine culture, biopsy, and a hormonal assay to see if shes "dirty" or incorrect hormone levels. Since then shes been back at home and comes into regular heats, shes also turned out with 2 mares and an intact mini stud who fortunately cant reach her but tries! lol Shes been turned out with him only since shes been home, Would this make a difference possibly? Does anyone have any ideas at all? She is a very well bred mare and worth what i have put into her so far. But second opinions always help. Thanks
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3001
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2010 - 12:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With the greatest respect, I think you need to work with some people that have a better degree of knowledge of equine reproduction. Granted your mare is not making it easy for you, but there are some serious points that suggest you are not getting the best advice all around...
  • Mares should not be bred every day. Sperm last 48-72 hours in the mare (or longer), but repeated breedings will (a) introduce more pathogens; (b) increase the irritant presence in the uterus (particularly important with an older mare); and (c) as a consequence reduce chances of establishing pregnancy. Mares should be bred every other day.
  • The "mass" on the ovary sounds most likely to have been an annovulatory hemorrhagic follicle (follow that link for more details).
  • The mare is exhibiting fairly typical symptoms of being a " silent estrus mare (again, follow the link for more details).
  • Bleeding from the uterus post-breeding would not be caused by "irritation from constant breedings" - that would not cause bleeding. There must have been some form of trauma to cause the bleeding.
  • The swollen udder would not be caused by "pregnancy hormones" - the hormones are not different at that stage whether the mare is pregnant or not. It probably would have been worth further investigation, but if it's resolved now, hopefully it is OK.
  • Fluid in the uterus of an older mare is strongly suggestive of delayed uterine clearance - a common problem with older mares. Was she ultrasounded regularly during her breeding cycle(s)? She probably should have been... Post breeding inflammatory response is extremely likely in this type of mare (older, maiden) and can often be resolved with the use of an oxytocin protocol (follow link). This is something that should have been considered and advised about prior to breeding. While it is possible that the mare now has a uterine infection, it is also most likely that it is associated with a DUC situation.
  • A culture and cytology would have been a good investment "up front", and still would be, although the biopsy - even though it is more expensive - will tell you the same and more. I see no reason to question hormone levels at this point - in what you describe she has demonstrated nothing indicative of such an issue, and be extremely cautious of the next possible piece of advice you receive from that quarter if it is that you should "put the mare on Regumate" for "low" progesterone levels! Read out article about Regumate use to understand more about that caution.
Overall, my inclination would be to think that you have an older mare with delayed uterine clearance and silent estrus issues that needs some tight management. We see quite a few each year, and with care and good management there is no reason why you should not have a good chance of a pregnancy. Evaluation if the cervix to ensure relaxation during estrus is also worth considering. As I say though, you may want to seek a veterinarian specializing in equine reproduction (preferably a theriogenologist) to help you out. Sometimes, it's cheaper in the long run...!



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