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FULL TERM TWINS! LINGERING QUESTIONS.

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 2 » FULL TERM TWINS! LINGERING QUESTIONS. « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

WSTRNPLEASUREPAINTS
Nursing Foal
Username: Jmshowhorses

Post Number: 13
Registered: 05-2010
Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2010 - 12:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Some colleagues of mine recently had a mare that went to 371 days, and wasn't very large, and had just a strange shape. She was dripping colostrum for over a week, and I have no BUSINESS giving advice about equine reproduction, but I told them I thought it was twins, and mabe they were having positional issues? I advised they should consult a vet. As in my experience when they wax over , and start dripping it isn't long! NEEDLESS to say the very next morning I got a call that their mare was foaling, and when I got there... There were two giant amniotic sacks, that haden't even ruptured, I IMMEDIATELY tore the "VERY TOUGH" bags open with my teeth, I think? And There was a BEAUTIFUL BUCKSKIN COLT, & A BEAUTIFUL GRULLA FILLY in the other, both surprisingly equal in size, and rather average looking. I gave them CPR, and got them breathing but their pupils, were fixed, and they had just sufficated. There was NO placenta to inspect as they had fused together , and had shredded/torn apart during the delivery..My instinct told me there was probably something retained? I had them go get me some oxy, I gave her, and IM pennicillin, and she is on her second post cycle, and they are going to re-breed her.
I can't help but wonder, why they had been born in those REALLY TOUGH bags, and I STRONGLY feel I could of saved BOTH of them if I had attended the delivery. They didn't appear to be in anyway septic? And were VERY average in size, and development for a singleton foal...Has anyone had a similar experience???? It is kinda secretly eating at me still
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2858
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 10:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thickened amnion and placenta, coupled with prolonged pregnancy duration point towards an endophyte issue probably related to Fescue.

There are a few areas of errata in your post, which I hope may be helpful to clarify:
  • Although 371 days is just outside the average gestational duration, it is only just, as the average gestational duration is 320-370 days. The mare was hardly "late" therefore;
  • Waxing is unreliable as an indicator of impending foaling. Mares may wax up as much as 2 weeks (or even more) prior to foaling, or not wax up at all;
  • Ditto dripping of colostrum, which can go on for some time prior to foaling in some cases (and lead to other issues);
  • You could not have got them breathing if their pupils were "fixed" and indicative of no reflex - that is an indication of death;
  • I believe that you would have found the plancentae would be separate, not fused. Equine twins have separate placental formation;
  • The placentae would not be passed until after the foaling, so it would not have been unusual to see nothing immediately present to evaluate, but perfectly normal;
  • Random use of antibiotics with no identified need is not good as it leads to creation of resistant organisms. This is compounded in this case by apparently having only given a single dose - it is essential that an entire course be given if it is prescribed.
Without a post-mortem it is difficult to determine causes, but as I note above, the thickened membranes plus longer gestational duration are both suggestive of endophyte issues. If that is the case, then it is quite possible that the foals were born alive and might have survived had someone been there to break the amniotic sacs and allow breathing to commence sooner.
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3384
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 05:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My question would be...if you got a call from someone telling you the mare was foaling...why were they not there to get the foals out of the sacks? who just sat there and watched this happen without intervening?
 

WSTRNPLEASUREPAINTS
Nursing Foal
Username: Jmshowhorses

Post Number: 14
Registered: 05-2010
Posted on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 07:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They owners of the mare were leaving to work, and they noticed she had started the foaling process that morning, as they knew I was close, and thought it was a routine "singleton"delivery, as they are breeders, and I am a trainer.
Mabe they never took a breath??? I thought there was a shallow very slow breathing pattern? I KNOW they had a faint heartbeat, but appeared dead. ONE THING I AM POSITIVE IS THAT the umbilical cords went right to the placentas, and they all came out together. they were stuck to the "THICK" amniotic sacs still. one placenta was much larger, but they appeared BY ALL MEANS that they had torn apart, during the delivery. I kept her on penicillin for 10 days. If I use pennicillin, or any antibiotic, I always make sure it has(atleast had a good amount of time) to take care of the bacteria I was concerned of, or I wouldn't use it. I am a firm believer of NOT over using antibiotics! I called my veterinarian, and he advised me of the use, as a prevenitive measure with what I described. I REALLY WISH I WOULD HAVE TAKEN PICS. NOW, so you could see that they came out in a whole! The sacs were SOO tough that I couldn't tear them. I didn't know that a mare could carry a set of twins to that gestational age. I had a mare go over 400 days in the past, and it was caused by fescue. I am almost 100% positive by inspecting the placentas, as they fit together like a puzzle that they had been fused, but if its impossible??? I guess I was wrong?
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3386
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, May 17, 2010 - 08:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

just goes to prove, no matter how much we *think* we know..there's always something nobody's seen before> LOL



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