Hello I have a predicament I would like to share with you. We have western pleasure paints, and I am a trainer, BY NO MEANS A BREEDER! I have a 18 year old grade 14h (red roan) mare of my wifes,"Rosie" that I rescued 8 years ago from deaths door.She currently suffers SEVERE COPD. I had a Norfleet stud which I gelded two years ago. "Like an idiot", after his snaffle bit show season, I DID breed him to a limited number of mares prior to his gelding. I isolated him for six months (post castration). And a year, and 1/2 ago he became lot mates with my wifes mare "Rosie". At first he bred, and bred with witnessed penetration, and leakage aftermath. I was going to seperate them worried about infection in mare when last Feb. he stopped. for the past three months I have semi been joking "Rosie" is bred. but IMPOSSIBLE right? 3 weeks to the day I noticed without a doubt to me she was in foal. She is little framed petite 14h mare, and late pregnancy is un mistakeable in this mare SHE has only been in contact in the last year with my show horse "buddy". I watched them remove 2 testes, but clamped close, and against my wanting took no cord, and cut on the clamp site. As her pregnancy has been progressing her breathing has become harder, and harder(almost gasping), and upon blue gums decided medication is a must.The vet gave me Ventipulmin, and dexomethasone, despite the risk of abortion due to that Rosie is a priceless member of our family, and can't fathom losing her. OH, and yes her pregnancy (WAS) last week confirmed).He also gave me oxytocin if needed? NO WAY IN MY OPINION? I waited, and yesterday her breathing, and gum color worsened, so I medicated her "HESITANTLY"! She reacted so intense, after one 5 ml dose, She started contracting intense, very confused, dripping sweat, and dripping what appeared to be watery colostrum from her under developed bag. I thought I was losing her, she began to push, and go down and up very weak at the knees. The foal kicking "frantic" inside , and I knew It wasn't going to be good.Her unripened rump was spazming, and her vulva tripled in length in 5 mins. time. To my AMAZEMENT she has slowed down with the contractions but they still appear final stage intense, as the medicine wore off. that has continued today, but I haven't given her anymore Ventripulmin, or Dexamethasone. Unfortunately I haven't seen this usually active foal make one movement today! With no breeding date, I have no idea where she is or if it could have a chance of survival if we go ahead, and take it out with the Oxy? AND if hypothetically if it was a live birth? colostrum? She appears very weak today , and gums returning to blue? ANY ADVICE?? I am entirely against induction, but Rose's outcome is # 1 before the foal! It would be nothing short of a miracle if both survived!!! Thank You, and I hope I can get some good advice! I feel whatever I do is wrong! How could this happen?????
Diana Gilger Senior Stallion or Mare Username: Kdgilger
Post Number: 2777 Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Saturday, January 16, 2010 - 10:01 pm:
Johnny....what does your vet advise?? This is a terrible situation! I feel for you. Hopefully someone here can give you some good advice.
I would HIGHLY recommend not giving the Oxy and forcing induction without a vet present. If the oxy is given and the foal is not in the proper foaling position you are taking the chance of losing both the mare and foal with a horrible delivery. It is a terrible situation, is there any other meds she can be given for the COPD??
You observe that "late pregnancy is un mistakeable in this mare", but how? How have you "confirmed" pregnancy? If you are relying on physical appearance, or what you think is fetal movement exhibited externally (a very common area of error) then it is entirely possible that the mare is not truly pregnant or even exhibiting a pseudo-pregnancy for example.
It would be highly unlikely that a mare could be got pregnant by a successfully castrated colt separated for 6 months after castration. Even if there were additional testes present, if the castrating vet was competent, then any testicle external to the inguinal canal should have been identified and removed, while any abdominally retained testicle would not be likely to be sperm-producing.
It is important to be aware that it is perfectly normal for some geldings to mount and breed mares, including erection and penetration. It is not an indication of a failed castration, but it is an indication of why it's not a good idea to keep geldings in with mares...
You need to have pregnancy confirmed (or refuted) in this mare by means of an internal examination (rectal palpation or ultrasound) by an experienced veterinarian. Your course of treatment will depend entirely upon what is found - and I would not be surprised if you find she is not pregnant. If she is pregnant, then you need to look at another source for the sperm! (Did something get loose, or has she been housed with an 7+ month old colt foal? etc.)
Dexamthasone has been shown as unlikely to cause abortion in mares (not impossible, but unlikely), unlike some other species (Jeffcott LB, Rossdale PD. A critical review of current methods for induction of parturition in the mare. Equine Vet J. 1977 Oct;9(4):208-15; and Drost M. Failure to induce parturition in pony mares with dexamethasone. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 1972 Feb 1;160(3):321-2), so do not rule out it's use to relieve the COPD. Ventipulmin (Clenbuterol) is perfectly OK for use in pregnant mares, and in fact has been used in the past in mares facing possible abortion due to placentitis to reduce uterine contractions. It is also worthy of consideration when looking at suitable drug use, to ponder that if the mare is pregnant and becomes distressed enough, she could abort spontaneously anyway. In my estimation therefore, the mare is the critical factor to protect, more so than the (unlikely) foal. Note that I have not said that Dexamethasone will not cause abortion, only that it is demonstrated as less likely to than in other species!
Bottom line? Get a good reproductive vet to absolutely confirm pregnancy in this mare as a first step (mistakes can be made!), then go from there based upon the results. If the mare is found to be pregnant, an experienced reproductive veterinarian should be able to give you a gestational duration estimate based upon orbital diameter, which will assist you. As far as induction - if you want to save the foal, it's usually a bad idea, but if you do want to try it, there are several very important criteria that must be met in order for a reasonable successfully rate of delivery of a live and viable foal. Your reproductive veterinarian should be aware of those required factors. Colostrum may or may not be an issue, but it is always a good idea to have an alternate source available, or a commercial supplement such as Seramune on hand.
Her pregnancy was confirmed via palpation, from the most repuatable/only equine specialist in the area. My old vet is extremely surprised the venti reacted in her the way it did! I have not given her any more medication and she is still holding the (non-moving) foal. But her breathing is still BAD. I am not confident in this vet that he couldn't give an estimate of gestational age by palpating, and that he sent my wife home with oxy, not informing, and him not knowing I knew the risks! I wish I could have unlimited funds for "Rosie", and get a live foal out of her, but with the upcoming show season, and school, it's just not able to be done! I just don't want to lose her. should I give her the ventipulmin again? Did she just have a "strange" 1 time reaction? we moved to our new home last March, and prior to moving our neighbors DID have a stud. I have racked my brain trying to figure out a time that she got out, and can't! But from my research , and Jos's info. Have concluded he has to some how be the sire! He was a beautiful red roan overo, and was a 2 year old at the time. He just bred his first mares this season. Thinking back my neighbor was surprised that last Feb. his temperament changed drastically as if he had bred. I was gone alot last February, and she could have easily got to him ,IF she got out? hell we could see him from our house. I need to re-evaluate this situation, since talking to our old neighbor, and having an idea that this mare is most likely close to 340 days. She HAS been on fescue her whole pregnancy since we were un- aware. I don't have a "reproductive" vet, or have the means to get one in this area. That is why I don't ever breed my horses! I am so afraid we are going to lose her she is grunting, and gasping, should I do the venti again without the Dexamethasone? Thank you all for the advise!!!!! Johnny
Diana Gilger Senior Stallion or Mare Username: Kdgilger
Post Number: 2779 Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, January 17, 2010 - 01:48 pm:
Johnny, mares and stallions dont have to get "out" to get the job done. I have seen it done thru a fence MANY times!!
Pseudo-pregnancy is where the mare presents all of the indications of pregnancy - even down to enlarged barrel and milk production in extreme cases - but in fact has no baby on board. They will even go into labour, and then all of a sudden, it's all over... with no foal!
Unfortunately, as far as advising you what to do in your current situation, we've now (as a board) really come to the end of the road, and you need to have a vet physically present to evaluate the mare. There is a limitation to what can be safely suggested or indicated via the Internet, and it would be unfair to suggest that it would be feasible for you to gain adequate information from this (or any other Internet) location to determine what to do with your mare that appears now to be in respiratory distress. You need a vet to physically evaluate her. If you're not happy with your current vet, get another... but get one soon! Good luck.
Thanks for the advice Jos. I AM looking for another vet, and I hope all ends well, for "Rosie"! I know they can breed through a fence but she would have had to get out of her pen to get near his. Thanks again guys! Unless they bred from 300 yards( which would be about as likely as Buddy breeding her and conceiving!) I will let you know what happens if you want? Johnny/ Morgan Paints
Kathee McGuire Senior Stallion or Mare Username: Katheekj
Post Number: 1628 Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, January 18, 2010 - 05:30 am:
I am sure I speak for many on the board when I say, please keep us updated!
WOW~ I AM SO SORRY I NEVER UP-DATED ABOUT ROSIE! ~PLEASE~...DON'T HATE ME!LOL... "Rosie" gave birth to a VERY HEALTHY and LARGE LOUD liver chestnut ...frame overo filly, 1-21-2010. She DID have a DIFFICULT birth although... WE STILL HAVE HER, and she is still on Ventipulman, & dexamethasone and actually is doing ...NOT THAT BAD THESE DAYS. We named the filly "lucy" and... she is GRADE SO... we will probably keep ol... "luc" FOREVOR here at the ranch. Actually just had one of my show mares... a ... AQHA MARE ... foal a LETHAL WHITE recently. YES...MY LUCK HASN'T GOTTEN ANY BETTER!LOL...TY EVERYONE
Glad all went well with your mare. Do you have any pics of Lucy?
Sorry for your loss. What a shock that must have been out of a QH mare. I know how you feel as my paint mare had a lethal white filly last year. It is never easy. Was the sire a QH too?
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