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Jos, cytology culture question

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 2 » Jos, cytology culture question « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Heidi Caldwell
Weanling
Username: Heidicald

Post Number: 25
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 05:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos, I am thinking about trying again with my mare, who has had 2 unsuc. attempts so far this year. I never had a cyt/culture or biopsy done first, wish I had. Costs are a big factor for me right now so I am needing to know which tests should be done.

To refresh you, it is my warmblood mare age 17. Had 1 foal 5 yrs ago and one via ET 8 years ago. Her uterus (according to two vets) is in excellent shape, no scar tissue or abnormalities they could see. She did not take the last two attempts via AI and things were pretty much textbook perfect for timing. She did have a lot of fluid this last time, so vet lavaged her one day after ovualtion and we gave her about 5 shots of oxytocin IM, 2 hours apart. He thought that would do the trick. The first AI time at UGA, she also had fluid and I gave her oxytocin (as per instruction from there) at every 2 hour intervals starting about 6 hours after ovulation. I think I gave about 6 shots total vi subcu.

So, I am about to try again and need to know which tests I should do on this mare in your opinion. Cyt & culture? Biopsy? My vet here thinks just cult/cyt because her uterus was in such good shape. What to you think? Do thse tests have t be done at a certain time in the cycle?

I really want to do everything proactively and have the highest chance possible of course! He also recommended Regumate 5 days after ovulation this time. I have also been told about "Settle" from my stallion owner. Do you have an opinion on this? If you have time and can answer these questions, I would really appreciate it!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2536
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, July 07, 2009 - 10:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would start by having a biopsy and culture performed. You cannot tell the condition of the uterine (endometrial) lining just by looking at an ultrasound. That's why there are biopsies... <eyes rolling>

The biopsy is going to tell you more than a culture and cytology. The fact that this mare is 17 years old and has had five foals potentially predisposes her to a poorer quality uterus, and if you get a "III" biopsy score and decide not to breed the mare, that biopsy will be the cheapest investment you ever made...

Presuming you find she has a reasonable biopsy score (I, IIa or IIb), then move onto the next step. You can review our opinion of indiscriminate Regumate use (and undiagnosed use is indiscriminate) here.

Settle has been demonstrated as improving pregnancy rates in mares with immune function failure or deficit, especially where β haemolytic streptococcus are involved. Beyond that, I cannot really comment, as despite breeding a large number of mares each year, we do not use it.

I would also encourage you to read about the oxytocin protocol that we use, as it seems to differ slightly from what you have been using.
 

Heidi Caldwell
Weanling
Username: Heidicald

Post Number: 26
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 07:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, she has had one foal, 5 years ago. Her uterus was in excellent condition (again, according to u.s.)

Her previous owner had her biopsied for that foal and it was fine (5 years ago).

So, knowing she only had one foal naturally, would you still recommend the biopsy/culture instead of culture/cytology?

Thanks Jos!!
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2102
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 07:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heidi, personally I would follow Jos's advice and definately do a biopsy/culture. This would give you the information critical at this point.

I was always told to do this during estrus, but maybe Jos would say differently. Taking the biopsy and culture during estrus is easier because the cervix is more open at this time. Also, the mare is more naturally resistant to uterine infection during estrus, so if any contamination is inadvetently introduced during the process it will be more readily cleared by the mare.

Good luck Heidi, I'm rooting for you!!!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2537
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - 10:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, transposed the numbers, but yes, after multiple attempts, unless there is a huge difference in price, I would go with the biopsy. As noted, it will tell you more.

Biopsy results are actually going to be more representative of the condition of the pregnant uterus (which is what you are interested in specifically) if the sample is taken during diestrus (and then the mare is given prostaglandin to return her to estrus in case something is introduced during sampling). That's because the uterus is under the influence of progesterone both during [early] pregnancy and diestrus. An endometrial swab however is (in our opinion) bet done during estrus (although there are arguments to be made for diestrus swabbing too). Either can however be done at any time if necessary.
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2113
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 07:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heidi, what have you decided to do?
 

Heidi Caldwell
Weanling
Username: Heidicald

Post Number: 28
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 01:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Marilyn. Vet came out this morning and he did a culture and cytology. If those come back questionable, we will then do a biopsy. Biopsy is quite a bit more $$ and frankly, I am about cooked there! He did not think it was nec at this point - since she has only had one foal naturally 5 years ago, has not been bred since and her uterus seemed excellent in tone with no scar tissue. I asked him if he knew about the biofilm you had, he said yes and that if she did have it, it would come back on the cult/cytology.

Kati is in heat now and has a size 40 follicle. So most likely we will miss this cycle to breed. If I have to treat her to get her clean we will do that before attempting to breed again. If all is clean, we will short cycle her I guess (even though will will only gain a week) and breed one last time. I will use Settle, Regumate and Jos's oxytocin protocol.

This mare has a very tight cervix, even today with a size 40 follicle! Vet thinks that is a bit weird. Perhaps she will be clean in the cult/cytology and she will not have ovulated by Monday, then maybe we can breed this cycle.

I'll keep you posted!
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2115
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 04:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good luck Heidi. If you don't mind, would you let us know the results of the lab work?
Thanks, Marilyn
 

Heidi Caldwell
Weanling
Username: Heidicald

Post Number: 29
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 05:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Definately will!

Did you breed to CAmiros?
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2117
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 09, 2009 - 07:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, we're using Camiros for Uh-O. Do you know this stallion Heidi?

I wasn't going to say anything, but I can't keep it to myself any longer. Please don't be upset with me, I'm just trying to help you...

I'm not sure where your vet got the information regarding biofilm, but you cannot tell weither or not she has a biofilm unless you do a biopsy. A culture and cytology will not show this. This is per our equine reproduction specialist. Our vet had lengthy discussions with Michelle LaBlanc the vet that had studied, treated many many mares that had a biofilm and written articles about biofilm.

I'm not saying your mare has biofilm. There's a very good chance she doesn't. This is something my mare had and we had to medicate for. That's the only reason I brought it up when I first posted.

I bummed you didn't get a biopsy done, trust me, you still will not have a complete picture of the reproduction condition of this mare unless you have a biopsy. There's just no way. If she has a clean culture and clean cytology and still doesn't get pregnant, you will need to do a biopsy.

I really hope you get her pregnant and she stays pregnant, so then this will all be in the past.

I hope I don't sound like a know it all, I'm not, I was just passing on what I've experianced.

I'm still dealing with a mare that's not pregnant, so I'm not having much luck either. :-(

I wish you luck and I'm on your side Heidi, I'd love nothing more than to see you posting you have a pregnant mare. My sincere hopes and wishes go out to you.
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2119
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 09:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heidi, I hope you're not upset with me for posting my thoughts. I care very much for you and I'm doing it out of friendship for you. I've been through the same gamit as you and I just wanted you to know what I've learned, the hard and costly way.

I want you to have a 2010 foal in the worst way!
Marilyn
 

Heidi Caldwell
Weanling
Username: Heidicald

Post Number: 30
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 09:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, I know Camiros, I almost bred to him! I chose Ariadus instead and have a nice 5 yr old from him.

I sure don't think you're a knowitall! Don't worry! It really was a cost issue, and I may still do it on Monday if vet says we should. If anything comes back abnormal, we are biopsying before breeding. That is good info about the biofilm and I def. asked him about it. I will tell him what you have said. (Hope i can do that without making him mad!) There is such a fine line between owners and vets, you know? I do think he is a great vet on every level and he has a great reputation and works for the biggest arab farm in the state as their repro vet.

We are pretty darn certain it is a DUC issue. We are going to treat her cervix with ointment this time and use jos's oxytocin proto. Also put her on Settle and REg 5 days after ovu.

Do you breed holsteiners? I just have the two, the mare I am breeding now is dutch and we are breeding to Rousseau.
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2120
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 09:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lol, I tread lightly when conversing with my vet as well. I don't want to sound like I don't trust them or think they're not doing their job properly. I completely understand what you're saying. It's a fine line for sure!

Yes, I breed Holsteiners, at least trying to... lol!!! I loved Ariadus, and originally were planning on breeding to him. But after seeing him in person, we thought he was a little too hot for our mare. She is quite hot herself and would like to breed a little quieter stallion to her.

I'm waiting to hear from Uh-O's (my mare being bred) vet, to see what's going on with her, but I haven't heard yet. With everything going on with Zealand (the filly with the leg injury)that I haven't paid much attention to Uh-O. I'm so bad. lol
 

Heidi Caldwell
Weanling
Username: Heidicald

Post Number: 31
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 01:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Funny, my Ariadus boy is the DEADEST most quiet horse I have. I am totally serious. Lazy is his middle name. And his momma is sensitive and hot. So the quiet did NOT come from her. I ride him on the buckle through the woods alone. Arena work is hard because of the lazy factor, getting him in front of my leg is ALWAYS the focus of our work. But, as I say, i would rather have lazy than crazy! I'm getting too old for that crap.

Yes, I read about Zealand, that is just terrible. I am sure you are doing everything for her. She will pull through!

Watch Uh-O get pregnant now when you are not focusing all the attention on her issues! Sounds like she is off at the vet's being bred?
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2122
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 01:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lol... Actually she's been at the vet's place in Michigan since the middle of April. Now you know I'm horse poor! lol

I'm very surprised your boy is "lazy". I would never have guessed it. Do you have a picture of you boy? I'd love to see him.
 

Heidi Caldwell
Weanling
Username: Heidicald

Post Number: 32
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh Geez, I can imagine. Send me your email and I will send you pics of my holsteiners.
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2125
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 10, 2009 - 06:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heidi, I'd love to see them! My email address is keystonefarm@embarqmail.com
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2133
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - 08:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heidi, I'm very curious, did you get your lab results back yesterday? What were the results?
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2143
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 16, 2009 - 07:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heidi, what were the lab results? I hope all is well.
 

Samantha
Breeding Stock
Username: Dressage_diva333

Post Number: 779
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 01:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heidi, did you end up getting a biopsy done?

I would really do one if I were you, it gives you a much better picture of what your dealing with. Even if the mare has only had one foal, she could have some issues... maybe there was an infection that wasn't treated, or who knows?

I've got 3 mares who have had 5 foals (I call 5 foals the "cursed" number.. ugh). Two who are ages 11 and 12, have IIA biopsy scores. Both are Thoroughbreds who I got from the same breeding farm, and they've got excellent records on them. Another mare is a Swedish mare... she's had 5 foals. We had the biopsy done in the Spring of last year. IIB, not great. Her last pregnancy ended in a 5 month abortion 5 years prior, that would have been her 6th foal. The notes on her biopsy were notoriously worse than on the other two mares'. I knew I was a little in over my head when getting the IIB mare, but I just adore her, she's a fantastic mare, and a beyond proven producer. However, it looks like ET is our only option with her now

Anyways, sorry for the long post. Basically, I would have all the diagnostics done before breeding. Get a good idea of what your working with. I always use Oxytocin. Even on mares with excellent pregnancy rates w/o it. I swear by it. It's also important to check for post breeding fluid, as sometimes lavages are necessary.

Good luck! I hope you end up with your Rousseau baby
 

Kim Peavy
Breeding Stock
Username: Lovemysinbad

Post Number: 529
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Friday, July 17, 2009 - 08:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Samantha..funny you should mention the 5 foal thing...you all know the trouble I've had with Sweetie this year...guess what, she's had 5 foals! EEEK....so we shall be doing a major work up before we try again next year...thanks for that info....it's the 5 foal curse i guess....good luck Heidi
 

Heidi Caldwell
Weanling
Username: Heidicald

Post Number: 35
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 22, 2009 - 09:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My mare's culture and cytology came back with an infection. So vet treated it last week during her heat cycle for three days in a row of uterine antibiotics. He said that should do the trick and we will breed next cycle, in about two weeks.

Will give tons of oxytocin (Jos's protocal), regumate after days 5, and Settle as well.
 

Julie G
Neonate
Username: Julie_g

Post Number: 6
Registered: 07-2009
Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2009 - 06:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good luck Heidi. I'm breeding my 16 yo Oldenburg mare today...had 2 previous unsucessful attempts this season. We're doing the Oxytocin protocol this time - did cytology and culture this cycle and all looks ok except for some pre-breeding fluid - which have been treating w/ lavage and oxytocin. I also live in GA and had pre-breeding evaluation at UGA in April. I really wish we had done a biopsy then! Will do one next if she doesn't settle. Again, good luck to you - I can relate to your frustration and disappointment!
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2156
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2009 - 08:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good luck Heidi and Julie! I'm in the same boat as you are. My mare was bred last weekend and will have an ultrasound the beginning of August. I hope and pray we finally get her this time!
 

Julie G
Neonate
Username: Julie_g

Post Number: 7
Registered: 07-2009
Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2009 - 09:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good luck Marilyn! I hope you do finally get your mare in foal this time. I have been following your posts too. Keep us posted!
 

Heidi Caldwell
Weanling
Username: Heidicald

Post Number: 36
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2009 - 10:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Julie G, can you email me at heidicald@yahoo.com. I want to hear more about your UGS breeding exam. Thanks!
 

Julie G
Neonate
Username: Julie_g

Post Number: 8
Registered: 07-2009
Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2009 - 11:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heidi - Just sent you an e-mail...



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