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Rosalyn Serex
Neonate
Username: Solaris
Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, June 11, 2009 - 07:49 pm: | 
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We scanned a mare today at 15 days post insemmination only to discover what looked like a 36 day pregnancy, however no embryo or heartbeat detected (but then vet only found one heartbeat out of the six all at 36 days plus)
I personally suspect the mass is fluid, taking the form of a classic pregnancy but the vet does not wish to wash her out and give her PG just incase it is a viable pregnancy.
So am asking, can a mare come into season be insemminated and ovulate whilst already pregnant? She had been insemminated 36 days previously but no pregancy detected at 15 days.
TIA |
Carol K
Weanling
Username: Rodawn
Post Number: 33
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 04:36 pm: |
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Not sure what you meant when you said "but the vet only found one heartbeat out of all six all at 36 days plus"... you haven't tried 6 times to breed this mare, have you?
More than likely the first mass is a blighted ovum (dead embryo) and so she went into heat and ovulated again. I would accept the advice of your vet and not flush her and PG, but you should be aware that she may not settle this most recent attempt either - if she does have a blighted ovum in there, her body will want to get rid of it, which will also get rid of any viable one too. You don't want to flush because if a 15-day-old embryo is still in there, it's floating around and hasn't attached to the uterine wall. Flushing would literally evacuate it.
Unless you are thinking to just flush everything out and start all over from scratch again. Which is always an option too.
I would suggest ultrasounding her again on day 29-30 and see what things look like. If she's empty, then you have a clean slate to try again. If the original mass is still there and she has not changed in size and it also appears there is a more recent, viable embryo safely starting to attach to the uterine wall, there might be greater options available to you, or it might still be best to take a wait and see approach. With this latter scenario, I would also ultrasound her again at day 45 and see what is happening.
(Message edited by rodawn on June 14, 2009) |
Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2487
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 11:07 pm: |
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A 15 day pregnancy should be fairly spherical in shape, and will have a very different appearance from a 36 day pregnancy. Take a look at the article on this site about embryonic images and you will quickly see what I mean.
As far as a mare having been bred AI while pregnant, although around 10% of mares will show estrus while pregnant, the chances of maintenance of a previously established pregnancy while undergoing AI would be extremely low (I "never say never", but this almost a never!). When the mare is pregnant (or in diestrus) and under the influence of elevated levels of progesterone, her uterine immune response is suppressed. Consequently, introduction of potentially pathogenic organisms along with the semen (and you will always get organisms, no matter how clean the process) would be likely to result in in an issue. Coupled with that, introduction of a large volume of liquid (the insemination dose) through the closed cervix would also spell serious trouble for an already extant pregnancy. If an insemination was performed in that manner, it would be more likely that the intra-uterine fluid you are seeing now is the remnants of the insemination dose, not a pregnancy!
You also have another issue to consider. If the mare is indeed 36 days "pregnant" with a non-viable pregnancy, then she is unlikely to return to estrus for around another 90-120 days. At around day 36 some structures called the endometrial cups form, which secrete a hormone called equine chorionic gonadotropin (eCG), which causes the production of secondary CL's and these in turn will prevent the mare from returning to estrus until they regress - probably around 120-150 days after the initial ovulation upon which she was bred.
Your best bet is to check again after 23 days of (believed) pregnancy duration and see if there is a heartbeat there then. If your vet is not good at finding a heartbeat (which from a statistic of 1 out of 6 mares checked would seem to be the case!) you might want to try another vet for that procedure! |
Rosalyn Serex
Neonate
Username: Solaris
Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2009
| | Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 05:06 am: |
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Thanks Jos, that confirms my suspicions that A) if pregnant from first insemination the mare should not have come into estrous B) would not have ovulated and C) if pregnant from previous insemmination the fluid would have most certainly induced embryotic death.
The image seen was the same shown in the images at 23 days, only larger with no sign of embryo or heartbeat but as previously mentioned he struggled to clearly show embryo's or heartbeats in the other mares who were all bred on the same day following a 2x Pg protocol to induce Estrous.
My vet was unhappy to confirm it as fluid due to its fixed positioning as did not seem "mobile" hence his reluctance to PG and wash out. She has a CL in the right ovary from the 15 day ovulation, nothing in the left from which she ovulated the previous cycle. He is looking at her again on Thursday so will keep you posted.
Very dissapointed that he was undable to detect the heartbeats in the other mares, re-inforcing the need to reinvest in a better probe as the image detected whilst scanning the mares is very poor quality with black lines vertically obscuring the view.
Carol sorry that my post was not clearer the mare in question has been bred on two cycles with a single insemination not six times. Only one heartbeat was detected in the other mares but all other factors indicate that they are pregnant. |
Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2491
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 04:22 pm: |
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Hold it! Roll the train back into the station... 
A) if pregnant from first insemination the mare should not have come into estrous
About 10% of mares will display estrus (note "us" not "ous" - the latter refers to the entire cycle, while the "us" is the "heat" phase), so it is still possible for a mare to be pregnant and in "heat".
B) would not have ovulated
Wrong again! Mares - unlike other species - under the influence of progesterone can not only develop follicles, but also ovulate on them. Mares can have diestrus ovulations. Additionally, from about 36 days of pregnancy through to about 90-120 days, mares produce secondary follicles that either ovulate or luteinize, but either way they become secondary CL's, which increase the mare's endogenous progesterone levels.
C) if pregnant from previous insemmination the fluid would have most certainly induced embryotic death.
As I said, "never say never", but you could get pretty darn close to absolute here...
It does sound as though a second opinion with a different ultrasound might be in order though... |
Carol K
Weanling
Username: Rodawn
Post Number: 40
Registered: 05-2009
| | Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 04:54 pm: |
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Agree with Jos 100% all the way. I have one mare of my bunch who heats all the way through her pregnancies and my vet suspects does indeed regularly ovulate as we happened to catch sight of a huge follicle during an ultrasound exam, which made the vet catch her breath thinking maybe she hadn't taken, but when checking the uterus again, there was the little guy, looking normally sized for dates. Had she not seen the embryo we might have made the mistake of breeding the mare again. Yikes. Mare drives the boys and us humans crazy stir-sticks until winter comes and we finally all get some peace and quiet! The fluid issue is tough, this same mare also gets a lot of fluid, but so far she seems to be in that little wee itty-bitty percentage where she manages to hang onto the pregnancy. The miracles are teeny, but no less a miracle, and I'll take them with thanks. Nevertheless, we do still turn quite blue from holding our breath during the suspenseful waiting period.
So, good luck with your mare and keep your chin and hopes up. I also think a second opinion is in order. Cheers. |
Solaris
Neonate
Username: Solaris
Post Number: 3
Registered: 06-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 06:55 pm: |
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ok thanks Jos thats clearer now. I was aware they could show signs of heat and familar with seeing larger follicles when pregant but didn't think they would ovulate, thats good to know something else learned. Sounds as if there is a miniscule possibility that she is indeed pregnant from first insemination but unlikely was kinda hoping that there was no possible chance as would make the descision easier just to set the wheels in motion again.
Thanks Carol I Think a trip to a specialist might be in order if the result is still inconclusive on Thursday. It's a shame the scanner doesn't print would love to have shown you what was found as looked identical to the image of another mare confirmed in foal bred on the same day confirmed at 15 days and again at the 30+ |
Sue harmon
Neonate
Username: Sharmon62
Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 11:43 pm: |
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I have a mare that ovulated on 5-27 and was AI'd on 5-27 and 5-28. On day 14 we ultrasounded her. My vet said she had 19 -20 follicle, therefore indicating she was not bred and was coming back into heat. On day 16, the follicles had decreased to a 17. On day 18, still only a 17. He wanted to use regumate (sp) for 7 days and then estrumate to bring her back in. I chose not to do this and will have her checked again next Wednesday (with a different vet), which will be about day 30. Did I do the right thing are do you think she is just "sitting idle" like my vet said and needs a jump start to get her cycling. Very confused since she had a normal cycle and ovulated on her last cycle. |
Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2502
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 12:25 am: |
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You did the right thing by refusing the Estrumate and seeking a second opinion.
It is not at all uncommon for a pregnant mare to develop a follicle (or follicles) at 14-21 days of pregnancy. It's perfectly normal, and is not a sign of her not being pregnant, nor is it a sign of her being about to come back into estrus ("heat"). If that's what your vet told you, then they obviously slept through that part of the lecture at school, and should not be practising equine reproductive medicine without some additional instruction.
Having said that, it is still possible that your mare is not pregnant, but you at least have a chance that she is - if you had given Estrumate, you can guarantee that she would not have been! Hopefully you will find that she is... |
Solaris
Neonate
Username: Solaris
Post Number: 9
Registered: 06-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 08:03 am: |
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Uterus clear today so have given her PG scan on Monday  oh well |
katie j
Neonate
Username: Jazzer
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2011
| | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2011 - 06:38 pm: |
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my 7 year old paint\ quarter mare is showing signs of a possible pregnancy but i dont know.... Ive had her for 9 months now..she has not been around a stud since Ive had her....her previous owner said she wasnt bred but im starting to second guess it...her teats are hard at times and soft at times...today they are hard and they have drooped alot....when i squeeze them a clear liquid comes out....could this be a false pregnancy or something to do with her hormone levels? |
Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger
Post Number: 3912
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2011 - 11:43 pm: |
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it's not unusual for unbred mares to have teats with fluid in them. If you really want to know if she's bred, you could have her seen by a vet or just play the waiting game the next couple of months. If she were further than 9 months, you should be seeing foal movement |
Sara
Weanling
Username: Sznanners
Post Number: 45
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2011 - 07:14 am: |
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I just went through this THIS week with a mare I bought last week. The vet come out and more or less said it was a hormone issue that could be caused by many reasons and he called the fluid witch's brew? said could be spring, she could have been around another nursing mare, could have been cyst on ovary (which he looked for and she did not have) could just be hormonal with early spring heats. Only having her such a short time I had no idea what the possibility was of her being bred so just had the vet out. Good luck to you and your mare |
katie j
Neonate
Username: Jazzer
Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2011
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 12:21 am: |
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today when i looked at jazz{my mare}her teats had gone down but they do this and then swell up again..shes not real sensitive about them being touched or her belly but she is a little uncomfortable with it,which its never bothered her before...her belly is very very round....i dont know anything about broodmares or pregnancy...i train and ride and do barrel racing- so i dont know what to look for or anything---thank u guys so much for ur advice..its greatly appreciated.. |
katie j
Neonate
Username: Jazzer
Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2011
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 12:27 am: |
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when i got her..she looked awesome..very muscular and filled out....kinda like a stud..but now she really looks fat and it makes me sad cuz she used to look so good |
Sara
Weanling
Username: Sznanners
Post Number: 47
Registered: 08-2010
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 07:16 am: |
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well there could be a few things going on here...but I would suggest just having the vet out for the peace of mind. If she is bred you will have a small amount of time to get ready if you need, but if not you can start working that big 'ol belly off I have one of the most dead broke laziest mares you will ever see that only will run if she is chasing a grain bucket...with the spring arriving and being in full heat (which she never shows 'SIGNS' of she won't allow me to mess with her sometimes. Good luck with your mare and hopefully you can get some answers and peace of mind....have a great day! |
katie j
Neonate
Username: Jazzer
Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2011
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - 12:01 pm: |
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i would have her checked but its the financial issue....so i guess just play the waiting game....shes not unhealthy at all and shes quite happy but i dont wont to hurt her if she is pregnant..she was my playday mare...but now im not playdayin on her of this...thanks guys |
katie j
Neonate
Username: Jazzer
Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2011
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 03:13 pm: |
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she had her baby today..it was a little colt..both of his eyes r blue wit natural eyeliner..hes a brown and white with really long legs,,he really healthy....just have to name him now |
Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger
Post Number: 3924
Registered: 01-2008
| | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 09:12 pm: |
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oh wow! that was a shocker with a happy ending! Glad to know everything went ok! Can you post pics? |
katie j
Neonate
Username: Jazzer
Post Number: 6
Registered: 04-2011
| | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2011 - 11:33 am: |
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i dont know how to on here but i can try on facebook{if thats allowed here} thanks..we named him apache |
Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy
Post Number: 368
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2011 - 12:00 am: |
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WOW! |
