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14 day pregnancy and fluid

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 2 » 14 day pregnancy and fluid « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

james
Neonate
Username: Rolomaxi

Post Number: 3
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Saturday, May 30, 2009 - 06:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I used the oxytocin protocol on a problem mare that pools fluids during estrus and is therefore prone to post breeding endometritis. She now has a 14 day conceptus but also has a slight amount of fluid 8mm localised in her left horn. She ovulated from 2 follicles so she has 2 solid looking CL's at the moment.
Would she benefit from progesterone supplementation?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2466
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 01:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It should be noted that progesterone (or progestin) presence tends to decrease the ability of the uterus to absorb free fluid. Consequently, giving progestins to a pregnant mare that already has free uterine fluid present could make the problem worse, not better.

Are you absolutely sure that you're not looking at a second conceptus, or the remnant of a second conceptus? Presuming not, then about all I would do at this stage is cross my fingers, hope for the best, and check again later.
 

Ad TB
Breeding Stock
Username: Ajvtbs

Post Number: 845
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 04:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I read an article written by an Australian Vet Angus McKinnon that showed good results when mares with fluid were treated with antibiotics e.g Trimediazine for 5 days each month throughout pregnancy.
 

james
Neonate
Username: Rolomaxi

Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 06:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ya, its fluid alright , i checked her 3 day post ovulation when she got her last shot of oxytocin im and a little fluid was detected. I think a bolus of oxytocin iv clears the fluid completely compared to im.
Any opinions?
 

Ad TB
Breeding Stock
Username: Ajvtbs

Post Number: 846
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 11:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just spoke to my resident vet who said, she's probably losing the pregnancy so first thing is to try to maintain the pregnancy. I'd a mare last year like this and we gave her a high dose for Regumate 25ml for 2-3 days. Now you need to treat the fluid with IV trimediazine and finadyne. Check to see if the pregnancy is still there in another 2-3 days.
I spoke to him about the use of regumate and the decreased ability of the uterus absorbing free fluid and he said that the most important thing is to mainatin the pregnancy and without it the pregnancy will probably be lost. If the scan in 2-3 days shows that the pregnancy is still there and the fluid has decreasedf then the regumate can be decreased.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2467
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 11:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think a bolus of oxytocin iv clears the fluid completely compared to im.

Oxytocin is such a small molecule that it becomes systemic very rapidly no matter what route of administration is used.
 

james
Neonate
Username: Rolomaxi

Post Number: 5
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Monday, June 01, 2009 - 09:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think she going to lose this one. Conceptus is only 13mm today not as big a normal 16 day preg.I might try her on that trimediazine next time round. What is the actual trade name and i will see if i can get it in ireland
 

Ad TB
Breeding Stock
Username: Ajvtbs

Post Number: 848
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Tuesday, June 02, 2009 - 11:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Trimediazine plain is the trade name it comes in sachets, it's a white powder. Norodine which comes in a paste given orally would also do or Neopen which is injected IM. All are available in Ireland. Hopefully you'll have better luck next time. Would you consider flushing her 6 hours after covering and treating her with neopen intrauterine
 

james
Neonate
Username: Rolomaxi

Post Number: 6
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Tuesday, June 02, 2009 - 04:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for info, she was flushed 5 hrs post covering and infused with exenel and then oxytocin every 6 hrs to 3 days post ovulation. Did you hear of any sucess with dexamethasone to control excessive oedema thereby fluid accumulation. I would be wary of steroids but i would try anything now!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2468
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, June 02, 2009 - 11:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

According to Bucca et. al. (Bucca S,Carli A, Buckley T, Dolci G, Fogarty U; (2008) The use of dexamethasone administered to mares at breeding time in the modulation of persistent mating induced endometritis; Theriogenology 70:7 1093-1100) Dexamethasone may be successfully used at the time of breeding to assist in reduction of uterine inflammatory response in susceptible mares.
 

james
Neonate
Username: Rolomaxi

Post Number: 7
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 05:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She's back in season today with a discharge to my disgust. She was swabbed with cytology early in the season and BHS and E.coli diagnosed. She was treated accordingly and skipped 2 cycles. Her last cycle she was lavaged and treated once with antibiotics, excenel, along with the oxytocin protocol after AI. She doesnt aspirate air or pool urine. What will i try this time round? More than 1 days antibiotic treatment post breeding i presume.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2476
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, June 09, 2009 - 09:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You might want to have an endometrial biopsy and culture done - not so much as an evaluation of the endometrium itself, but as an overall condition evaluation. You will get more information from a biopsy and culture than from a culture and cytology.

The other thing you can discuss with your veterinarian is the use of a betadine and DMSO lavage prior to breeding (early in estrus, not just prior to breeding! Indeed, the cycle before is better). We have seen good success with some mares that have proven difficult and have received this treatment.
 

james
Neonate
Username: Rolomaxi

Post Number: 9
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 05:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos can you tell me more about betadine dmso lavage. Do you give them together or seperatly and/or dilute in saline. I can get a stock solution of 99% dmso. Can it be diluted in saline or ringers to tame it, if so at what concentration
I am a vet myself but have not used this regime but it sounds interesting
 

Carol K
Weanling
Username: Rodawn

Post Number: 27
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Saturday, June 13, 2009 - 11:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I, too, would like to hear more about this because I have a mare who also pools heavily.
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2002
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 07:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is just about what we did for Uh-O, my mare who's been a problem mare from day one. My vet used a drug, (I can't remember what the name of it is) but it does the same thing as flushing with DMSO. Uh-O never had a cloudy return when flushed until this was used. It came back very cloudy, so I know it did something.

She was then treated twice for Strep Zoo and for the first time in a year, her culture came back clean.

The person who named my mare Uh-O, should be shot, she certainly has lived up to that name.
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 2397
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 02:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hahaha!!! I know how you feel Marilyn....but I think Uh-O is a cute name though! One thing I have learned is to stay away from dogs named "Angel" "Precious" and "sweetie" as they are usually quite the opposite! On the other hand, "killer" and "brutus" are usually quite sweet! ahahhahaha!! Don't know why, just thought to interject that after reading your post...LOL
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2483
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 10:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We use two recipes for the DMSO/Betadine lavage, depending upon what we are seeing and dealing with:

Lavage Recipe 1
Betadine Solution (10% Povidone-Iodine): 70 ml
DMSO: 150 ml
Lactated Ringerís Solution or Saline 780 ml

Lavage Recipe 2
Betadine Solution (10% Povidone-Iodine): 100 ml
DMSO: 100 ml
Grapefruit Seed Extract: 0.04% (0.48 ml - approximately 10 drops)
Lactated Ringerís Solution or Saline 1 litre

As you can see, the actual concentrations of iodine or DMSO are actually comparatively low. Having said that, note that these are both lavages not infusions. In other words, they are put in and drained out, and it is a good practice to give 10 IU (typically 0.5 ml in North America) of oxytocin just prior to allowing the fluids to drain back out. Leaving the fluids in for a prolonged period could result in endometrial damage.

The first recipe is used as a general lavage in difficult mares; the second in a mare that is more likely to have multiple pathogenic content - yeast/bacteria etc. - such as a windsucker mare, or a mare that has been previously treated with intrauterine antibiotics and has developed a yeast condition. The grapefruit seed extract is an added boost as an antibacterial/fungal.

The DMSO has some affinity for and ability ability to reverse endometrial fibrosis; and the Betadine of course in a general antibacterial/antiseptic. The DMSO also however has the ability to break down mucal coverings which accompanies some pathogenic, and can be very beneficial in that regard.

We will typically treat on the estrus before breeding, lavage with saline (or LRS) the next day, and then 6 days after ovulation give Prostaglandin F and then breed on the resulting estrus. The usual rules apply to the saline/LRS lavage - keep running it in until it comes out clear.

We would not use this routinely in a mare that pools fluid, although if the mare is pooling urine it may be of value.
 

Missy
Nursing Foal
Username: Missy

Post Number: 16
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 12:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos, My mare is 5 yrs old and has not conceived A.I. at this time. This is my third year trying. I had her Biopsy and cultured. Culture clean but the Biopsy showed "Endometria Kenny Grade 2A" which is better than a 2B so I am remaining hopeful this mare may acheive PG with the proper treatment. She has never develop fluid and I always use the Oxytocin Protocal. 2 Yrs now she has been PG but then EED at around 30 days. Biopsy report states: " The submucosa is characterized by a diffuse mild edema occasionally accompanied by small clusters of plasma cels or lymphocytes. Multifolcal mild periglandular fibrosis is noted. Glands are often tortuous and occas. contained luminal accumulations of eosinophilic material."
Last attempted A.I. I used a different vet that lavaged her prior to breeding with Saline and small amount of antibotics on Tuesday, A.I. on Wed, Thurs no ovulation so inseminated second A.I. 30 hrs from first A.I. and she ovulated on Friday morning. Vet stated semen was still in good condition (lots of swimmers) on Thursday evening.and repeated same lavage after second A.I.
Friday afternoon. I gave Oxytocin protocal and she did not take which I expected due to semen being so old at this time. I would like to try one of the Betadine/DMSO recipes on her and would like your opinion if she would be a good canadate given her biopsy report?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2492
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 02:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The biopsy score IIA is actually what the majority of mares will be. If offers a 50-80% live foal rate.

The periglandular fibrosis coupled with repeated pregnancy loss at around 30 days is suggestive of a mare that may benefit from a Betadine/DMSO lavage - probably the DMSO more than the Betadine. It would probably be worth talking to your veterinarian about it and giving it a go. The biopsy report of eosinophilic material may be suggestive that she is a windsucker, so you might also want to talk to your veterinarian about placement of a Caslick's procedure. I would still keep up with the oxytocin protocol as well if she were my mare.
 

Missy
Nursing Foal
Username: Missy

Post Number: 17
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 04:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Jos for the advice. I am going to give my vet the recipe and we will minus the Betadine. She actually has good conformation in the vulva so I would be surprised if she is a windsucker. I intend to keep with the Oxytocin protocol as well. I feel strongly this mare is breedable under the proper treatment plan.
 

beverly cabot
Neonate
Username: Pulsations

Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 01:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

josh, I have a 17 yr old maiden mare, that was bred 4/10/09(ai),u/s on4/27/09,in foal l4 days but vet said coming back in heat.did and was rebred 5/2, &5/4/09. U/S on 5/20/09-possibly in foal but 12d. decided she has an overtight cervex. They did a spec & culture on 5/22. On 5/25 they gave a 3 liter lavage , Oxytocin. On 5/26 palp her(not sure if they lavaged her again or inseminated. On 5/27 palp, HCG injection, Prostin(Lutalyse) injection . 5/28 palp,(know she was ovulating) lavaged 3 liters ,Oxytocin. She was insemated on 5/28 before wash. Now on 6/l6 she was u/s and said to be pregnant, saying 16d but everything looks good. Is the size of the conceptus too small? does this indicate loss. They put her on regumate on 6/l6. thank-you
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2498
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 07:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

People get hung up on conceptus diameter. If you look at most ultrasound machines, they - right there on the screen when measuring conceptus diameter - give you a reading of "x days +/- y days" - for example: "14 days +/- 4 days". They do not read "this conceptus is measuring 12 days and if it's really a 14 days pregnancy, then you're in deep trouble"... :-)

Bear in mind too, not only do you have individual conceptus and ultrasound machine variation, but did those sperm swim straight to the oocyte and fertilize it within nanoseconds of ovulation? If not (and they probably didn't!), you've got another margin for difference there!

Check again later. If it's still there, then you know it was good. If it's gone, then you know it wasn't. There's nothing you can do about it anyway! :-)
 

beverly cabot
Neonate
Username: Pulsations

Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 07:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

josh, thank you very much for your quick response.I appreciate your honesty and help. sorry I am just nervous and excited about this pregnacy and I am just trying to settle my fears.
 

Missy
Nursing Foal
Username: Missy

Post Number: 18
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 11:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos once we lavage with the DMSO my vet would give oxytocin, drain fluid out imediately but not add more saline to flush more, then do a saline lavage the following day..correct? Would this mare benefit from putting in the grapefruit seed extract?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2500
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 - 11:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Correct on the protocol outline.

The grapefruit seed extract is an anti-bacterial/fungal, so if you are dealing with bacteria or fungus (yeast), it can be of value, otherwise it's not really necessary.
 

beverly cabot
Neonate
Username: Pulsations

Post Number: 3
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Thursday, June 18, 2009 - 11:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jos, first let me apoligize for calling you josh,your name maybe joseph or something different from josh.(i am sorry that i assummed). my concern is that at l7d or more that on U/S the picture should have been more ovalical, or ragid. not round or symmetrical. Shouldn't that be a red flag that all is not as it is supposed to be, at l9d , when they say l6d.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2504
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, June 19, 2009 - 02:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How did they confirm the ovulation, and was there a second ovulation?

Sounds to me as though what they were looking at was a 16/17 day pregnancy, and not as far along as they suggested.

Have her checked again, then you'll know for sure.
 

beverly cabot
Neonate
Username: Pulsations

Post Number: 4
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Friday, June 19, 2009 - 03:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jos, How long does it take after HCG injection for the egg to burst.Was give shot on 27th and breed 28th. On l6th u/s was taken and they said l6d conceptus. I called breeder today and asked about shape and they said could not tell by u/s(theirs I quess) but only by size. She still is not showing heat(she is like clockwork). He told me on 28th she was ovulating(I assumed they palped her and by u/s) is how they knew. all was clear and he seems sure. Also they are giving her P4 shots(not regumate). which do you advise I continue when she comes home? Shots once a week would be more conveinent but have read regumate is better. Is there a big difference? thank you
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2505
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, June 19, 2009 - 05:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The interval to ovulation following use of hCG will vary between mares and depending upon the diameter of the follicle at the time of administration. If a suitable dose (1500-3300 IU for a 1000-1500# horse) is given when there is a 35 mm follicle present, the most common time range to ovulation is 36-42 hours.

You can read our opinion of progestin supplementation in the article at this location on our site.
 

beverly cabot
Neonate
Username: Pulsations

Post Number: 5
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 12:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hi jos, good news u/s today and 35d-good heart beat. my question is now,we have a l2hr haul and have thought that there is a optuim time for hauling. is there a window that is safer than another. i always thought 55 days and before ?.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2526
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, July 02, 2009 - 09:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Prior to 72 hours post-ovulation, and then after about 50 days would be safest. The biggest threat is heat. Haul early in the morning or even overnight to keep in the cool.

This is also one area where it may be beneficial to supplement with exogenous progestins if you think there is a serious concern about hauling.
 

beverly cabot
Neonate
Username: Pulsations

Post Number: 6
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 12:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jos, thank you so much , because we would be hauling in the summer heat and now will plan to start haul at about 9pm to 9am.(kentucky to pa) What exactly is exogenous progestins? She is already getting a progestrin(they call it P4-but think that is only a barn name for progestrin) shot every 7-10 days. is this the same thing and if so should the dosage be upped for haul?
 

beverly cabot
Neonate
Username: Pulsations

Post Number: 7
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 12:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

P.S. for jos, I thank you and and I trust you for your direct and correct answers. You were right on with the U/S being +/- 4 days when I asked you.I think your answer of not being hung up on the u/s size was right on. Also thank you for understanding and PUTTING UP WITH the anxiety of us breeders. MY mare is 35d now and exactly right on when she was bred even though u/s at l9 days said she was l6 days. you called it, and explained u/s have a degree of fault(difference)-something that the adverage horseman is not aware of. Thank you for that hope, thank-you for a little more understanding.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2527
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, July 03, 2009 - 03:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It would be wise to haul overnight in the hot weather.

"Exogenous progestins" are hormones that are in the group "progestins" - which include progesterone (which is also known as P4) and synthetic progestins such as altrenogest (the active ingredient in Regumate). "Exogenous" indicates an origin outside the animal (in other words these drugs are being given to the mare) rather than "endogenous", meaning produced from within the animal. As she is already on P4 supplementation, you do not need to worry about giving her more. Do note however that Vanderwall found that the long-acting P4 shot (which is probably what your mare is getting) kept levels elevated for only 7 days on average, not 10 days, so you may want to discuss those findings with your veterinarian to determine if treatment every 7 days rather than 10 days may be more appropriate for your mare.
 

james
Neonate
Username: Rolomaxi

Post Number: 10
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 04:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos, can oxytocin prebreeding reduce uterine oedema to a grade 1 or 2 thereby making it a little more difficult to predict ovulation
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2552
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 11:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's not something that I've ever seen. Never say never, but I don't think it would make a difference, as there would have to be a negative feedback loop for estrogen, which is positively associated with the edema, and I don't believe you'll find that exists. If there were a negative feedback loop for estrogen, then that in turn would suggest impact on follicular secretion of estrogen, which again is not impacted by oxytocin that I am aware of.
 

beverly cabot
Neonate
Username: Pulsations

Post Number: 8
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Sunday, July 19, 2009 - 03:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jos, we are be going to haul 57-60d pregnant mare home from kentucky to pa.(about l2hr in trailer).Do you suggest we stitch her up, as fecal or urine contamition could enter her uterus because of cofined space.Alot of hills up and down and concerned confined postions could compremise her.They say her comformation is correct and doesn't need to be stitched on a regular basis, but i want to take every precaution to hold this pregnancy as the mare is l8 and maiden.Her mother was stitched her first to pregnancies, but not last two.First two were long hauls(texas and indiana). Just wondering is this would be beneficial or unnessecary.
 

beverly cabot
Neonate
Username: Pulsations

Post Number: 9
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2009 - 12:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

can anyone give me advise on this issue
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2555
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, July 23, 2009 - 07:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is not really a question that can be answered reliably without seeing the mare. You should talk to your attending veterinarian who can evaluate the mare.

Unless the trailer is inappropriately small, it would be unlikely to be an issue in a mare with good reproductive conformation.

Additionally, if posting on the board again, please make sure that you post under an applicable heading so that you get a timely reply - "14 day pregnancy and fluid" is not exactly the subject you are asking about! :-)



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