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Mare with possible embryo and large follicles

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 2 » Mare with possible embryo and large follicles « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Bridgette Lanham
Neonate
Username: Blanham

Post Number: 10
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 06:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi all, I have never had this happen before so I am looking to see if anyone else ever has. One of my mares was bred 8 days after foaling. She had a 35mm Follicle on her right side. Ordered semen that day and she ovulated prior to insemenation. We still insemenated the mare even though there was a CL. The semen was already there and we figured we might get lucky. On 12 days post ovulation she had a 34mm follicle on the left side.We ordered semen again. On 13 day post ovulation she had a 40mm follicle on left side, but had a small mass. Vet said it could be a possible embryo but, her cervix is still open. The semen will be here tomorrow and the vets arent sure if we need to wait to see if this is a possible embryo or if we need to inseminate and not miss this follicle. Since it is only 13 days post ovulation it could be a embyro. I am worried it could be a possible cyst. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2320
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 07:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Two points to consider:
  • It is perfectly normal for mares to develop follicles during either diestrus and/or early pregnancy. The follicular presence therefore means nothing.
  • If the cervix is truly relaxed, she's not pregnant. Or if she was when she was ultrasounded, then she's not now because:
    • When the cervix relaxes, the embryo leaves town.
    • In order for the cervix to be relaxed, progesterone levels must be <1ng/ml and if that's the case, it means she's not pregnant.
OK...maybe that's three points, sorta :-).
 

Bridgette Lanham
Nursing Foal
Username: Blanham

Post Number: 11
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 08:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the response. We are checking her in the morning and will most likely inseminate her. Due embryos from a post ovulation insemenation tend to be weaker? And when I say "weaker" I mean not as good grade of an embryo.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2321
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, March 24, 2009 - 10:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is a higher incidence of EED (early embryonic death) in pregnancies established on breedings that take place >6 hours post-ovulation. By the time you get to =>12 hours PO, the incidence of EED and overall establishment of pregnancies will start to significantly rise and drop respectively.

The embryo itself is not so much of an issue - if you establish a pregnancy with a PO breeding, the embryo will either survive or not. If it survives, it will be as good a foal as it would have been if the mare were bred pre-ovulation. What is affected is the overall condition of the conceptus (not just the embryo), which will tend to be somewhat more "decayed" the further past 6 hours PO that one gets. Remember that the oocyte ("egg") becomes the outer shell of the conceptus, and it is within that conceptus that the embryonic cells will develop, and it is the conceptus that becomes compromised with a delayed fertilization.
 

Michele
Breeding Stock
Username: Mich

Post Number: 133
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 12:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So Jos does that mean if a mare is inseminated with frozen semen post ovulation the chances of her becoming pregnant are less than if she were inseminated just prior to ovulation, (or < 6hrs prior to ovulation)?
 

Kathee McGuire
Breeding Stock
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 649
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 03:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If a mare can develop folicles while she is pregnant, how often will they stand for a stallion in this condition? The reason I ask is, my mare was bred 4 times in a week and then ultrasounded at 20 days and I was told she was still open. This was a shock because she had been checked prebreeding and was in excellent reproductive condition. All 4 breedings were very sucessful and she has conceived first time in the past. She was rebred 10 days later, and 20 days later confirmed settled. The mare will tease any time during the year and is a very willing breeder so we really have to confirm her cycle before breeding. According to the 2nd breeding, she is 314 days, but she looks like she has before at 340 days. I am ready whenever, but I am curious as to how often the ultrasound is misread and if a recently settled mare would stand for rebreeding if she was still producing folicles.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2326
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 07:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Michele: Breedings with any form of semen that take place greater than 6 hours but less than 12 hours post ovulation will see a slightly higher incidence of EED and establishment failure. Up to 6 hours post-ovulation, you will see approximately the same pregnancy rates established as with a pre-ovulatory breeding. Breedings with any form of semen that take place greater than greater than 12 hours post-ovulation will see a distinctly higher incidence of EED and establishment failure. The further out from ovulation one gets after that the greater the increases.

Kathee: About 10% of mares will display estrus during pregnancy, although the majority will resist if the stallion actually tries to breed her (although a minority will still even tolerate that). Of more note for you, is the important point that there is no such thing as a "due date" in the equine, and consequently thinking that a mare might be 340 days pregnant when she is only 314 or vice-versa is really not practical. The average range of normal gestation in the equine is 320-370 days, so if your mare were say 6 days out from foaling at 320 days, she could look very much like what she would look like 6 days out from foaling at 346 days! Read the article at the link I gave, and look at the range of gestational durations and the averages! It shed a whole new light on the concept that 340 days is a "due date"! :-)
 

Kathee McGuire
Breeding Stock
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 654
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 07:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am aware that there is no due date. I was just comparing her pregnancies. I understood that mares will follow similar patterns throughout their pregnancies. Have I misunderstood?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2328
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, March 26, 2009 - 10:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are a variety of other potential variational factors, so one cannot guarantee similar gestational durations. Factors that can alter that duration include (but are not limited to):
  • Age of the mare (older mares tend to carry longer);
  • Time of year of foaling (gestations that end towards the summer tend to be up to 2 weeks shorter than those that end early in the year);
  • There is a tendency for colts to be carried slightly longer than fillies;
  • Different stallions can impact the duration;
  • Nutritional status of the mare can affect duration.
You get the picture, I'm sure... :-)
 

Tiffcrum
Nursing Foal
Username: Tiffcrum

Post Number: 16
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 03:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is a very interesting post.
 

Michele
Breeding Stock
Username: Mich

Post Number: 134
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 01:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jos. WRT your last post, would a well-fed and well-covered mare tend to foal sooner than she would if she were on the leaner side and perhaps less well-nourished? If this is so, I would presume it's because the foal is larger than it would be if the mare weren't so well fed?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2331
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, March 27, 2009 - 06:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe... :-) It's not so much that the foal will be larger - the uterus is typically the controlling factor for fetal size - but more a matter of it's being able to develop a little faster as there is better nutrition available to the fetus.

It's not a precise science though!
 

Michele
Breeding Stock
Username: Mich

Post Number: 135
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 28, 2009 - 04:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

aha! Cheers:-)
 

Terry Waechter P.R.E. foals
Breeding Stock
Username: Watchman

Post Number: 536
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 12:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interestingly this year so far all three of my mares have foaled from 333 to 340 days....in CA ...last year same mares were up to 9 days after the 340 mark...same month of the year



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