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Mare at 20 days past breeding but embyo still mobile

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 2 » Mare at 20 days past breeding but embyo still mobile « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Kjersti Tackett
Nursing Foal
Username: Freetodreamarabians

Post Number: 18
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 09:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi all I've got a question. I've got a
-14 yr old TB
-P&E protocol
-inseminated June 27&28 HCG on 27th (had to order semen a day early hence the hcg and 1st insemination the same day
-teased in on 29th and OUT on the 30th so I guessed she ovulated the 28-29th

-ultrasounded today 18-19 days and has twins in separate horns. both the same size abt. 20mm? and still spherical in shape; although not like a 14 day pregnancy, and at least one is still mobile because it moved while she was in there; or so the vet thought (don't they fix at 16 days and lose the regularity of shape at 17 days though?)

Anyway the vet successfully pinched the more convenient one in the left horn and then gave banamine and regumate which I am to continue for 3 and 10 days. Is this regular protocol for this type of situation? we've never dealt with twins before. What are the chances of keeping the remaining pregnancy even though we're a bit beyond the optimal recommended window for reduction? How much variability is there in terms of early embryonic development and should I be concerned? The vet wants to recheck in 8 days and look for a heartbeat is that a good plan? Thanks in advance for any suggestions and answers.
Kjersti
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2087
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 10:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fixation usually does occur around day 16 post ovulation, but there are no absolutes in reproduction! :-) Loss of regularity of shape however is pretty predictable at 17 days.

Were there 2 ovulations confirmed, or is the second one possible an asynchronous ovulation?

Are you sure there were no cysts?

Are you sure it's not free fluid in the uterus?

All else sounds good...
 

Kjersti Tackett
Nursing Foal
Username: Freetodreamarabians

Post Number: 19
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 01:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well I looked at the ultrasound pics again and the embryos do not have the regularity of shape like I thought I remembered so yeah they both look normal for 17 days shape wise. It's not quite as pronounced as some that I've seen but after looking on the internet at other pics they're definatly normal. So maybe the vet was wrong about it moving huh? it wasn't in a dramatically different location still the base of the right horn. maybe she was mistaken.

She does have one cyst but we knew about it from a pre-breeding exam and it's small (they said it's about the size a 10 day pregnancy would be) so where the two embryos were the same size around 20? and right on for 17 days the vet was sure they were twins. Doesn't using HCG prevent asynchronous ovulations? I'm curious. She was bred friday and saturday, hcg given friday, and was out of heat monday morning.

Also from my reading it appears that the use of regumate and banamine post pinching is for owner confidence not better success rates is that correct pretty much? Is it ever indicated in a twins situation?

Thanks so much I appreciate the help!
 

Kjersti Tackett
Nursing Foal
Username: Freetodreamarabians

Post Number: 20
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 02:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

this is the scanned images of the right horn pregnancy that we kept and also of the cyst
[IMG]http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n293/freetodream/willow17dayspregnancyult.jpg[/IMG]
let me know what you think.
Kjersti
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2093
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, July 20, 2008 - 10:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hCG will only have an impact on follicles >35 mm in diameter, so if there is a secondary follicle smaller than that, it may ovulate later.

Regumate and Banamine really probably doesn't do much to prevent loss, as if loss occurs in a pinching situation it's usually after the effects of the Banamine and Regumate have passed. Their use would be unlikely to cause damage though, and so we tend to use them as a safety precaution on a "who knows" basis... :-)
 

Kjersti Tackett
Weanling
Username: Freetodreamarabians

Post Number: 21
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Saturday, July 26, 2008 - 12:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Update: Mare was rechecked at 24 days and was still in foal with the one and tone was good. So it worked! Thanks for the advice
Kjersti
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 1830
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2008 - 12:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yea Kjersti! That is great news!
 

Natalie Angstadt
Neonate
Username: Natalienicotra

Post Number: 7
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2008 - 09:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi everyone...I've now moved from the Uterine Fluid topic to this one.

Short story, mare bred 7/19 and 7/20. When checked on 7/21 to ensure no flid and ovulation, looks like we examined during ovulation.

Mare checked on 8/5 and we confirmed pregnancy at that time...however, the vessicle was still floating around. Mare was also on Regumate. We decided to check again on 8/9.

Yesterday's check showed us something the same size, and still moving around. She was never given any hormones to ovulate and only had one dominant follicle while breeding.

Not quite sure what is happening. Sound like EED? I am attaching a picture of what we saw on the 5th. Bad quality - vet doesnt have a printer on the U/S machine and I didnt have my digital camera so I snapped it with my camera phone. We had a hard time getting it on a good freeze since it was still moving around.

No cysts have ever been detected prior. Last night I stopped the Regulate. She has a good CL so if she is bred, hopefully that will do the trick.
http://www.nnarabians.com/images/08052008.jpg
 

Natalie Angstadt
Neonate
Username: Natalienicotra

Post Number: 8
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 11:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos! Need your advice!

Just read a research document on EED. http://www.scielo.br/pdf/bjvras/v35n4/35n4a05.pdf

So I started searching for Endometritius. Came to SETTLE's website. Now I know when my mare conceived with her first foal, Settle was part of the protocol. As I have been breeding her this season, she has been placed on antibiotics. Something is still inhospitable.

Knowing that Settle was part of our first successful attempt, I'm pondering a try with it again but would like to hear your thoughts on the product and where/when to use it.
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 1843
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 02:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Natalie, I am sure Jos will respond but I used the drug Settle with my mare in 2006 to get her in foal for a 2007 baby. It worked. Of course we started with cystology/culture/antibiotics; Settle; bred; followed up with Oxytocin protocol. So I am a believer albeit a one timer :-)
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2134
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, August 11, 2008 - 09:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While it is hard to tell what one is looking at with a "still" image of an ultrasound picture (rather than in "real time"), if the image you provided is of the uterine body, and an alleged ~19 day pregnancy, then it appears that the pregnancy is very small (again - note no measurements, so this may be a misconception). If that is the case, then it is quite possible that what you are seeing is in fact free fluid in the uterus, which would also support the high degree of mobility that is being seen (conceptii are not usually mobile to the point where one cannot freeze the image enough to view it...).

Incidentally, Regumate use is contra-indicated in mares with fluid and/or a likelihood of endometritis.

Re: Settle. We have used it in the past, but prefer to try and treat the potential issue by using preventative measures, rather than having it go to the point where we have to treat the results of the issue with something like Settle. Hence we tend to be aggressive in the pre- peri- and post-breeding use of oxytocin to try and prevent the occurrence of BIE, and/or other treatments to deal with that issue, or other endometritis causes.
 

Natalie Angstadt
Neonate
Username: Natalienicotra

Post Number: 9
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2008 - 04:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, the pregnancy was REALLY small. It was the same size on what was thought to be day 15 and day 19. I dont believe there was an asynchronous ovulation, but who knows! Also, if there was, that was some determined sperm to live that long inside the mare.

She was put on Regumate after it was confirmed the cervix was closing and no fluid was observed in the uterus.

We used the oxytocin regument as you describe. Once we got that cervix opened, it did the job.

I'm just trying to figure out what else is going on inside my mare. We've found and corrected many issues along this 6 cycle try!



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