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Mare in foal at 15 days, Open at 35 days, thoughts please

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 2 » Mare in foal at 15 days, Open at 35 days, thoughts please « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Paradise
Neonate
Username: Paradise

Post Number: 5
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 06:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leased 14yo maiden warmblood mare. Prior to lease, owner's Vet supplied clean culture & cytology, and reported "small uterus, good tone."

Mare was bred on 2 consecutive days in mid-March with fresh cooled semen AI. She was given HCG after the first insem and she ovulated the evening of the second insem.

She was started on Regumate and then given a progesterone assay, result was normal, so we were phasing out the Regumate. She did have Spring shots last week.

Confirmed in foal at 15 days. Now open at the 35 day check, with a 37mm follicle.

My Farm Manager thinks it is worth another try at breeding her before testing since she did catch initially. A biopsy result in our area takes about 2 - 3 weeks. He is more inclined to think that there may have been something wrong with the embryo or a reaction to the shots rather than a problem with the mare.

I am unsure as to whether this is a reasonable decision, I want to agree since it is getting pretty late in the year for us & all the others are bred.

I would appreciate any thoughts?

Thank you.
 

Samantha
Breeding Stock
Username: Dressage_diva333

Post Number: 119
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2008 - 10:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would say go ahead and breed again. It's really risky before the 45 day mark for mares to abort. So, give it another try :-)

What is the mare's breeding if you dont mind me asking? I breed WBs too :-)
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1881
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, May 02, 2008 - 12:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

  • The average single-cycle pregnancy rate is 58%.
  • If you're breeding 1 mare, that means that - statistically - you will take (just under) 2 cycles to achieve a pregnancy (1 x 58% = <1 !!!).
  • You're statistically perfectly normal.
  • Read the article about Regumate use for more insight before using it again.
  • Good luck on the next go-round - statistically you should have a pregnancy if she's a "normal" mare!
 

Paradise
Neonate
Username: Paradise

Post Number: 6
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 12:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jos!!

I think it was the 14 year old maiden part that had me nervous.

I suppose I have led a charmed breeding life to this point. In our breeding program we have had to go with 2 cycles to confirm a pregnancy a few times, this I do accept.

However, I have never lost a pregnancy once confirmed. I think it was this lost pregnancy factor that was most disturbing for me, leading me to wonder if there was something "wrong."

I read the Regumate article and I do agree that I probably perceive it as a panacea. With the leased mare I wanted to ensure every chance since there is no possibility to re-breed her should something happen. Since the progesterone assay was good (although not tested multiple times per day), I think we will be fine without it this go-round.

The mare is a 14yo maiden Oldenburg. She had a productive show career and I do not know what hormonal manipulation she may have had while campaigning. All I know is that she has cycled regularly since I brought her in and her original work-up was all clean and good.

I'll let you know if we have problems on the next breeding.

Thanks again
 

Paradise
Neonate
Username: Paradise

Post Number: 7
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 06:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

UPDATE...

Bred again, same exact situation as last breeding. Bred on a 48mm follicle on the 8th, gave her HCG, she was still holding on the 9th at 50mm, bred her a second time. She had ovulated by the morning of the 10th. Motility was great. This time no Regumate.

15 day u/s today, open.

I am going to culture/cytology & biopsy again, so at least I know I am using information from my Vet in whom I have a high confidence factor in terms of collection/handling & analysis.

In the meantime, other than bad reports from original owner's Vet, what other issues could be making things so difficult with this 14yo maiden?

Any suggestions? I am worried that I may be investing a lot in this breeding with questionable chance for success...this is a nice mare with a good competition record and I have just this one year's lease to try & breed, but I do have other less-accomplished yet lovely mares open this year....
 

Samantha
Breeding Stock
Username: Dressage_diva333

Post Number: 182
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 08:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Have you tried the Oxytocin Protocal? It got my 9 year old maiden Trakehner in foal after trying 9 times without it :-)
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1958
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 12:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd certainly start back at the beginning - biopsy and culture (no need for cytology if you're doing a biopsy), and also - as suggested by Samantha - use the oxytocin protocol that we promote on this site (follow the link for details).

Also confirm that the cervix is relaxing - with some older maiden mares there can be fibrosis, and that prevents relaxation of the cervix, thereby preventing uterine drainage pre- peri- and post-breeding. If it is tight, have your vet manually dilate it, and possibly discuss the use of a topical application of prostaglandin E cream.
 

Paradise
Neonate
Username: Paradise

Post Number: 8
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, May 26, 2008 - 01:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you...I'll keep you updated.
 

Paradise
Neonate
Username: Paradise

Post Number: 9
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 08:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

UPDATE.....

Vet apparently came out to do the biospy yesterday, ultra/sounded and mare is in foal!

I was actually at the office and received this news by text message, along with the disclaimer that sometimes a 15 day conceptus is hard to identify.

No complaints here.

30 days is now around June 10, so here's hoping!!

Thanks for the help.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1975
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2008 - 12:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sometimes a 15 day conceptus is hard to identify.

Not if there's not a bunch of cysts in there it isn't... :-)
 

Samantha
Breeding Stock
Username: Dressage_diva333

Post Number: 209
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 04:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Paradise- Congrats!

My vet won't even check mares until at least 16 days. It's irritating lol
 

Marilyn Lemke - Dora due 7/31/08
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 1449
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2008 - 07:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's great news Paradise! You wouldn't think a 15 day would be that difficult to spot, but oh well. I hope the vet didn't charge you for the second visit since he didn't catch it the first time around.
 

Paradise
Neonate
Username: Paradise

Post Number: 10
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, June 02, 2008 - 05:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the well wises all, let's just say I am cautiously optimistic. I'll feel much better at 60 days!!

Although Jos was rather generous, I suspect the text message was the Vet's way of not having to tell me directly that he not only missed it, but it measured large for the number of days!!

I've only seem this mare's u/s a couple of times - and I am no expert - but I didn't see any cysts, spots or dots at all, so good reason for some sheepishness there...but, as they say, no harm no foul (since it is good news)!!
 

Paradise
Nursing Foal
Username: Paradise

Post Number: 11
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2008 - 12:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No longer good news.

Mare is open at 32 days. Culture & cytology taken yesterday, mare is coming in and we will biopsy on Friday. In our area this gets sent out and we will likely not have the result for 2 weeks.

I actually spoke to the Vet this time, so I got a full update. This time we had placement issues. The pregnancy at 18 days (measuring 23 days) was in the uterine body, not a horn.

We are all (the Vet included) a bit perplexed, she came with a clean set of tests, her tone is good, she looks good & we are catching, she had no clearance issues, she's just not holding.

Could I just be phenomenally unlucky?
 

Laurie A Beltran
Breeding Stock
Username: Prophecy_ranch

Post Number: 285
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2008 - 04:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Paradise
I hope you get your baby!

Good Luck!

L



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