MAIN PAGE
EQUINE REPRODUCTION ARTICLES
SHORT COURSES
OTHER SERVICES AVAILABLE FROM EQUINE-REPRODUCTION.COM
FROZEN SEMEN STALLIONS
CERTIFIED SEMEN FREEZING LOCATIONS
EQUINE REPRODUCTION SUPPLIES
EQUINE REPRODUCTION BOOKS
EQUINE REPRODUCTION LINKS
EQUINE REPRODUCTION E-MAIL LIST
EASILY CALCULATE THE CORRECT VOLUME OF SEMEN AND EXTENDER TO SHIP OR USE ON FARM!
EQUINE REPRODUCTION BULLETIN BOARD
SITE MAP OF EQUINE-REPRODUCTION.COM
CONTACT US

horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
Go to the articles page
 
Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board
 
Topics Page Topics Page Register for a new account Register Edit Profile Profile Log Out Log Out Help/Instructions Help    
New Posts New Posts Last 1|3|7 Days Search Search Tree View Tree View  
Posting is restricted to registered board members only to prevent spamming of the board. We regret the necessity of this action, but hope you will appreciate the importance of the integrity of the board. Registration is free and information provided during the process will not be submitted to third parties.

2 mares not in foal, not in heat after P & E

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 2 » 2 mares not in foal, not in heat after P & E « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

carole whelan
Neonate
Username: Milmom

Post Number: 10
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 14, 2007 - 01:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

re the 2 mares that were bred and found "not in foal" on early U/S. Today they were U/S again, 32 days post insemination. Vet says definitely not in foal. Both mares have 35mm plus follicles on both ovaries, uterus firm, no endometrial folds. My vet is not a repro specialist, nor does she have the latest U/S machine, but she has found early embryos on other U/S without difficulty earlier than 32 days.
Is the only possibility here retained CLs? The odds of this on both mares seems low. Does P & E or EED increase the chances of retained CL? Is there any point on waiting any longer before giving prostaglandin? If I do that, is more rapid ovulation time likely, since they already have developed follicles? Is the 2 day reduced dose recommended?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1502
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 11:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm kinda squirming on my seat here... :-) All the physical indications point to a possibility of pregnancy (firm uterus, 35 mm follicles @ 32 days, no endometrial folds...). Do you have access to another vet with more experience and a better ultrasound machine for a second opinon? Better safe than sorry if there is any doubt whatsoever...

EED can cause a delay in return to estrus, but in both mares in the same way...??? P&E would not be an issue in that respect.

If you give PGF2a to a mare with a 35 mm folicle present you are very likely to get a rapid ovulation and a lower pregnancy rate. And of course, if she is pregnant already, a good chance of pregnancy loss... :-(
 

Ivy Rittenhouse
Weanling
Username: Appalotranch

Post Number: 31
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 12:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos,
My mare that I have had difficulty breeding; silent heat cycles, she was U/S, last night, day 18, no follicles developing but a prominante CL, and a very tight uterus. We know she ovulated on the 27th, and at day 18 one would think if she wasn't in foal she would at least be developing something....or has she shut down for the season? What are your thoughts on this? Thanks, Ivy.
 

carole whelan
Nursing Foal
Username: Milmom

Post Number: 11
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 12:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos, thanks, I'm squirming too. But wouldn't the uterus also be firm with no endometrial folds simply in the absence of estrus? Do follicles still normally develop in the presence of either a pregnancy and CL? One mare had a 35mm follicle at first check. That was unchanged, but new ones had developed on the other ovary on the latest check. The second mare had no developed follicles on the first check, but many large ones on the latest U/S.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1504
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 11:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ivy:

Either she's pregnant and the pregnancy was missed, or it is likely that she underwent EED and hasn't caught up with her cycle yet.

Carole:

Yes the uterus would be the toned during diestrus (but not quite as toned as an early pregnant uterus), and mares will develop follicles throughout the estrous cycle, pregnant or not, but (correct me if I'm wrong) you haven't seen any sign of estrus per u/s or teasing? Although there is always a possibility of a retained CL, as noted for that to happen in both mares would be way too much of a coincidence for my comfort level...

Once you get past 40 days you can use a blood test for equine chorionic gonadotropin... There's even a home test, the "Pregnamare" kit :-) Not foolproof, but may add weight to the argument...
 

Ivy Rittenhouse
Weanling
Username: Appalotranch

Post Number: 32
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 11:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos:
I was wondering; she was insemenated on July 26th (Thursday), 27th (Friday), and as we were insemenating she ovulated. My vet infused her with 60 cc penicillian + 1 g gentamicine (sp?) Sunday night at 6:00 pm. Then she had me start the oxytocin 12 hrs later, 2 ml, at 6:00 am Monday, and 1 pm Monday. I gave her your articles, and told her of my concern of the gentamicine, and the how many days we were waiting, but she said her prodicol has worked for her...and I read too much on the internet. Could this be part of our problem, we waited too late and used an antibiotic that causes uterine irritation? Thanks, again. -Ivy
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1505
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 06:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We prefer not to use Gentamycin on a cycle that we are breeding unless it is positively indicated (i.e. a pathogen involved that is sensitive to it). It should be buffered prior to intra-uterine use, but it is still more irritating than other antibiotics such as Timentin (which is popular for post-breeding infusions).

Did you use oxytocin prior to the 12 hours post-infusion? I would feel inclined to use it earlier in a problem mare - like 4 hours after breeding and every 6 hours after that until 3½ days post-ovulation...

Infusing 2 days post-ovulation is getting to the limit of desirable timing. The cervix is closing, but not closed usually until about 3 days post-ovulation... but it is pushing the limit. I prefer to treat the day after ovulation at the latest in most cases, and we have pretty good pregnancy rates even in problem mares.

But then maybe I just read too much on the Internet... :-)
 

Ivy Rittenhouse
Weanling
Username: Appalotranch

Post Number: 33
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 01:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos,
I am not sure if she buffered the gentamycin, I watched her make it up: The solution she used was ringers. Is that buffered? I told her of my concerns, and if it was buffered, and she said it would be.
We gave her 2 ml of oxytocin 12 hrs post-infusion, and another 2 ml 6 hrs later, that was it. When she infused her, she said her cervix was open, and that the antibiotics needed to be in for 12 hrs.

I wanted to infuse her the next day, post-insemenation: I even called her clinic, Saturday, to aske her, again, to do it and learned she was out of town on a horse ride....made me wonder if we were working around her schedule. I understand vets need time off too, but if this was the case maybe I could have gotten another vet out.
Any how, the season is over as the stallion owner said that she couldn't send any more this year. I have a huge vet bill and my mare is not pregnant..... Thank you for all your help and advise. I really wish my vet was more open to other's ideas, but she is not without being offended..or so it seems sometimes. -Ivy
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1507
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 02:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If the gentamycin was not buffered, your mare would have had a major inflammatory reaction to it and you would in all likelihood be aware of it, so it was probably buffered. That's not to say that there was still not a greater degree of inflammatory reaction than if an antibiotic such as Timentin® was used. As I say, gentamycin is not our first choice in that situation.

There is ample evidence - and has been for some time - that >25 IU (international units) of oxytocin is counterproductive in treatment for uterine clearance (Leblanc et. al. have demonstrated this in repeated experiments that have been published as early as 1994). The usual treatment dose is 10-20 IU. Veterinary oxytocin in North America is packaged at 20 IU/ml. You do the math... :-(

Sometimes it's cheaper in the long run to go to a reproductive specialist from the start.
 

JANE OLNEY
Breeding Stock
Username: Shotsnurse1

Post Number: 344
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 07:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ivy-
Did you have AI when you bread to Hi Tech Cowboy? I want to breed my mare in spring of 09. Did you take your mare there?
 

Ivy Rittenhouse
Weanling
Username: Appalotranch

Post Number: 34
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 08:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jane,
We AI'd for the Hi Tech Cowboy filly. We really didn't have any problems breeding that mare, the mare I am having problems with is a different mare...and she is now history...I sold her to a friend of mine. -Ivy
 

JANE OLNEY
Breeding Stock
Username: Shotsnurse1

Post Number: 346
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 10:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks. I just wanted to know if you had taken any of your mares there for natural cover.
 

Ivy Rittenhouse
Weanling
Username: Appalotranch

Post Number: 35
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 12:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jane,
No, I live too far away in North Carolina to travel to Ohio. Have you contacted Brian yet? He is such a great guy, and easy to talk to. If you do, tell him I sent you...he'll get a kick out of that. -Ivy



Please note that opinions, product information, advice or suggestions posted on this bulletin board are not necessarily those of the management at Equine-Reproduction.com nor does the maintenance of the post position indicate an implicit or any endorsement of that information, opinion or product.

Further, although we have the greatest respect for the posters offering assistance here, you are advised to seek a consultation with your veterinarian prior to using information obtained from this board if it is of a veterinary nature.

Proud to be sponsored and supported by:
IMV Technologies - makers of Equine AI Equipment
Equine A.I. Equipment Supplies
Universal Medical Systems Ultrasounds
For your Veterinary Ultrasounding Needs
Hamilton Research Inc - Home of the Equitainer
Hamilton Research Inc - Home of the Equitainer
Exodus Breeders Supply - Your one-stop shop for all your reproductive needs!
Exodus Breeders Supply
Har-Vet: An Industry Leader in Equine Veterinary Products
An Industry Leader in Equine Veterinary Products!
Reproduction Resources: Specializing in Artificial Breeding and Embryo Transfer Supplies
Specializing in Artificial Breeding and ET Supplies
BET Pharm: Your Compounding Pharmacy for Reproductive Needs!
Your Compounding Pharmacy for Reproductive Needs!
www.SemenTanks.com - Quality Tanks at Competitive Prices!
Quality Tanks at Competitive Prices!
J.L. Smith Co. - Safe, affordable breeding stocks!
Safe, affordable breeding stocks!
  International Veterinary Information Service
International Veterinary Information Service
 

MAIN PAGE | INFORMATIONAL ARTICLES | SHORTCOURSES | SERVICES
FROZEN STALLIONS | FREEZING LOCATIONS | SUPPLIES | BOOKS | LINKS
EQUINE REPRODUCTION E-MAIL LIST | SEMEN CALCULATOR | BULLETIN BOARD
SITEMAP | CONTACT US