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Hormone Manipulation

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 2 » Hormone Manipulation « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Magic1
Nursing Foal
Username: Magic1

Post Number: 18
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 02:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have two four year old mares, both in excellent condition. They were under lights since last November and had normal heat cycles in Jan. and Feb. On Feb 28th one came in to heat and was bred. On March 7 the second came in heat and was bred. The problem is that neither of these mares want to go out of heat. After two weeks of this I stopped breeding them and put them away from the stallion for two weeks. When taken back to the stallion they were both showing strong heat, so bred them for another week and then stopped for two weeks. Same result, both still showing to stallion. If anything stronger than before. I bred them every other day for a week and then took them away from the stallion and waited 2 weeks and took them to the vet this morning. Both were sonogrammed, no pregnancy and no problems with the exam. The vet sent me home with a two week supply of the regumate for the one mare that seemed to her to need to go completely out of heat and then when I stopped the regumate, wait for heat, breed her every other day for 6 days and then bring her back to the vet for examination to see if she is out of heat.
For the second mare, due to the way she feels inside, she gave me a shot of lutylase to give to her and then wait 6 days and breed her.
I am wondering if the experts on this board agree with this diagnosis? I really hate to get on the hormone wagon, as I have never used them before, but if they will help I don't mind. Also, I did a search on regumate and only find it used to maintain a pregnancy, not for regulating the heat cycle.
Any advice or input to this problem will be appreciated. I bred a 4 yr. old maiden 2 years ago that acted the same way, but I just stopped breeding her and waited 6 weeks and took her in to be checked and she was in foal. It took her over a month to stop showing to the stallion everytime she saw or heard him.
 

cathy Cook
Breeding Stock
Username: Razmacat

Post Number: 208
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 03:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Are your mares in transition? Did they ever ovulate? I have used Regumate to both keep a mare in foal and to get them to cycle.
 

Magic1
Nursing Foal
Username: Magic1

Post Number: 19
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 21, 2007 - 05:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know if the mares are in transition, but I am sure they ovulated. Their heats before I bred them were normal in every way, getting stronger towards the middle of the heat with them not wanting to leave the stallion when I teased them and definite about not being interested once they went out. They were in a normal heat when I did breed them and I did check on this site and discover that by continuing to breed them if they were in foal I may have messed up the pregnancy.
I think I messed these mares up with my indecision. I am going to go ahead and use these hormones the vet gave me and try and get these mares back to normal. I was just concerned about the use of the regumate. Thanks for the info.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1261
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 12:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How are you sure they ovulated? They sound as though they are transitional to me. I think you need to confirm that they have ovulated using either a progesterone assay or ultrasound...

If they are late-transitional, the use of Regumate may stimulate an ovulatory cycle.
 

Magic1
Nursing Foal
Username: Magic1

Post Number: 20
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 12:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The mare that received the shot of Lutylase has not shown any heat at all in the last week and it is 6 days today since she received the shot??? Right now I am stumped on this mare. When she received the Lutylase she barely had a reaction to it. A little sweating on her chest and that was all. Is it best to just keep teasing her to see if she will come in to a normal heat or should I take her to the vet for more examination.

Some background on this mare. The woman I bought her from had purchased her for embryo transplant. Her show mare did not cooperate, so she put this mare up for sale in the fall. This mare had a complete work up for breeding readiness and I have the documents from the veterinarian, so a health issue is not the problem. I started breeding this mare on March 3 and bred her through the 7th, then I started checking back on the 13th and she was still in heat so I bred for another 7 days and stopped and took her as far from the stallion as possible and waited, hoping they would go out of heat. I teased both of these mares again on April 12th and they were still showing heat. I bred one on April 14th and the other on April 15th and decided enough was enough and made an appointment with the vet. On April 22 one received the Lutylase and the other started on Regumate.
Also, my stallion has settled 5 mares so far this season, each during one cycle. The oldest mare is 18 and the youngest is 10.

The other mare is just about to start her second week of Regumate and then hopefully will come into a normal heat after this series (14 days) of shots is over.

I had a four year old do this same thing to me a couple of years ago, but I stopped breeding her after 12 days of every other day and waited a couple of weeks and she was out the next time I teased her.
 

Magic1
Weanling
Username: Magic1

Post Number: 21
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 12:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

About the ovulation. I can only go by my experience and what I have observed with mares in the past. At a certain point in their heat cycle their urine and discharge are different than at any other time in the cycle and I have always been able to settle a mare if I breed on that day. Both of these mares went through that and were at the point on those days of me virtually having to drag them away from the stallion to take them to the breeding area.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1269
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 09:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As noted above, you need to confirm ovulation in one of the manners suggested. Prostaglandin (of which "Lutalyse" is a brand) will not work if the mare is not yet ovulating for the season. As far as the "reaction" (sweating etc.) is concerned - that means nothing except the mare had to undergo an unpleasant and unnecessary experience. It is preferable to use 1/10th of the standard dose 2 days in a row to avoid those unpleasant reactions. For more details on (the numerous) reasons why prostaglandin will not work, check out the article entitled "I gave my mare prostaglandin, but it didn't work" - follow that link.

Confirming ovulation in the manner you suggest is going to be unreliable at best. The change in the urine colour is brought about by estrogen secretion from the follicle. When the urine returns to a more normal appearance, that indicates that the follicle is no longer secreting estrogen, which may indicate ovulation, or it may indicate that the follicle regressed rather than ovulated, which would be typical during transitional phase - in other words, you cannot rely on the change in colour of urine to indicate ovulation has occurred.
 

Magic1
Weanling
Username: Magic1

Post Number: 22
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 11:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos, I have really messed this up. When I took the mare to the vet she put on the sheet 2 CL's and told me the mare would ovulate in about 6 days. I started checking the mare on day four and got nothing. This mare has shown heat since March 3rd and suddenly no heat when she has had the Lutylase. I have had no experience with using hormones, so this is all new to me.
What would you suggest I do at this point with this mare? Should I start her on regumate for 14 days like the other mare and then wait for a normal heat, or should I just keep checking her every other day until she comes back into a natural heat? I don't really think my vet is very knowledgeable about horse reproduction which is causing me some concern too.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1275
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 10:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm a little puzzled at the observation that there were "2 CL's and... the mare would ovulate in about 6 days". If there were CL's present and the prostaglandin was given then one would typically expect the onset of estrus in 3-5 days and ovulation about 9 days after the prostaglandin was given.

Without an ultrasound it is almost impossible to determine what is going on with the mare (unless of course she is in raging heat, which may give you a clue!), so without the ultrasound there is really no way to determine whether the best thing is to use Regumate or wait...

Why not ask your vet? They will probably be able to give you a slightly better idea as to what might be going on (and what to do) as they did the initial evaluation. That's probably your best bet at this point.
 

Magic1
Weanling
Username: Magic1

Post Number: 23
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 29, 2007 - 11:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have read the article you mentioned and some others and did a search on CL, since I had no idea what that meant and have been reading the messages on that. I guess i will call the vet tomorrow and see if I can take that mare in again and have her checked to see what stage she may be in now.
Thanks for your help and I will post something when I know more about what is going on.
 

Magic1
Weanling
Username: Magic1

Post Number: 24
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 05:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have read everything I can find about hormone use with mares and seem to get more confused. When I read that Regumate can suppress heat but the mare may ovulate during the treatment my heart sunk. I have decided to take these mares to a vet clinic that specializes in horses and wondered what your recommendations might be for treatment, so I have some idea if this clinic is knowledgeable about equine reproduction.

Both mares are healthy, not overweight or underweight, 4 year old maiden mares.
Mare 1 (Sugar) was in heat for almost 6 weeks and then was put on a series of Regumate shots for 14 days. It has been 14 days since she came off of the Regumate and no sign of heat as yet. Have I waited long enough before doing something about this mare?
Mare 2 (Bella) was in heat for approx. 6 weeks also, then had a shot of Lutylase on April 22nd and has never shown heat since and it has been 26 days.
If you were treating these two mares, what treatment would you reccommend? Is it possible these two mares have Persistant Corpus Luteum and if so what would the suggested treatment be? Can anything be done or do I have to wait and start over next spring? It is my understanding that Persistant CL can last for 3 or 4 months, but I did read about a drug called Prosolvin and that if it is used it causes ovulation in 4-8 days.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1317
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, May 18, 2007 - 11:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I suspect that the mares may have been transitional when you first started, and since then have just not been followed closely enough. Without an ultrasound to determine what is (or isn't) present on the ovaries, it is really impossible to give any indication of what they might need, so start with a ultrasound examination, and a thorough pre-breeding soundness examination including an endometrial (uterine) culture and cytology.

Prosolvin is a synthetic prostaglandin, so it will do exactly the same thing as Lutalyse (which you have already used) or Estrumate and destroy the CL to bring the mare back into estrus - if there is a functional CL present. It's not available in the USA - it's a British drug.
 

Magic1
Weanling
Username: Magic1

Post Number: 26
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 01:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just a followup. I took the mares to the Equine Medical Clinic and they were examined and found to be in good breeding condition. I was given a shot of Lutylase for each, came home, gave them the shots and the next morning one mare was in heat and the next day the other one came in. They stayed in 6 days each and are now safely in foal. I wasted two months when I could have solved this problem by going to the specialist in the first place. He explained everything to me. He also told me to make sure the mares were off of fescue for 30 days before breeding. I hadn't even thought of the fescue problem here because normally my mares are off of fescue for 90 days before they foal, so when I breed them back they don't have any fescue poisoning. The fescue has been my main problem since moving to Missouri and I have been told that it is not a native grass, but was brought in because it is so hardy.
 

Mila Davidson
Neonate
Username: Promise_me

Post Number: 10
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 12:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It just makes my day to hear a happy ending! Congradulations Magic!



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