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AI Stats... colts vs fillies

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Methods » AI Stats... colts vs fillies « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Barbara Lewis
Yearling
Username: Baraka

Post Number: 73
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2011 - 02:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Seeing that breeding by cooled, transported semen results in significantly more colts than fillies, I wondered if there are stats regarding the ratio of colts, vs fillies when frozen semen is used?

I would also be very interested in getting more figures on how many colts were born, vs. fillies, by each of the 3 methods used: Cooled, Frozen, and Live or at least on-farm A-I breeding (which appear to be the same as live from my experience). Any of you mind posting your figures, or maybe some figures from you and your friends stats, combined? No horses names needed.

On my farm, when using live cover, or A-I immediately after collection, we are getting over twice the number of fillies, as opposed to colts.

Any insight as to why, from Jos or other experienced breeders, would be of interest also.
 

hedgerow pony farm
Breeding Stock
Username: Lotsofponies

Post Number: 188
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2011 - 05:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are my #'s
Shipped semen/fedex overnight:
2 - colts
5 - fillies
On farm AI, semen was extended & inseminated
within 2 hours of collections:
6 - colts
7 - fillies
Live cover:
2 - colt
3 - fillies

(Message edited by lotsofponies on May 15, 2011)
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3231
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2011 - 06:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Seeing that breeding by cooled, transported semen results in significantly more colts than fillies


Says who?

I think you'll find that the statistics are 50/50 - i.e. no different for cooled than for any other form of semen (including frozen).

I know when I first started doing AI 20+ years ago, the first season we did it, it seemed like all the AI breedings were one sex, and live cover the other (I can't remember which now), but over time when looking at the stallion's statistics, we found it became 50/50.

Certainly having dealt with thousands of semen shipments and breedings in the years since, I've seen no tendency towards one sex or another in the offspring.
 

Barbara Lewis
Yearling
Username: Baraka

Post Number: 74
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2011 - 07:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You said: Certainly having dealt with thousands of semen shipments and breedings in the years since, I've seen no tendency towards one sex or another in the offspring.

That's exactly why I came here. Who would have more experience and knowledge on this subject than you? No one, IMO. I was only taking the reports from 3 farms, including my own. Frankly, your words are a relief. Thanks.

BTW, what's the status regarding courses, particularly in Arkansas?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3234
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, May 16, 2011 - 10:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With the downswing in the economy and the opening our facility in Oklahoma, we cut back on the number of courses that we are giving. We will no longer offer courses in locations that are not financially viable (something that we have done many times in the past!!) or that do not have suitable facilities. Nor can we offer courses during the breeding season, as we are simply too darned busy here in Oklahoma! The courses that have proven the most successful of late are the Defra-certified courses in England!

We have not given a course at U of A for a couple of years as the last time we gave one there, the turnout was poor (probably associated with the start of the recession). They have also had some changes in their horse program in the last couple of years. We are not averse to giving another there, and hope to in the future as they are a good crew, but it is unlikely to be until next year at the earliest.

At this point, if you want a course this year, we're going to be in England again in October!! :-)
 

hidden lake stable
Nursing Foal
Username: Hiddenlakestable

Post Number: 20
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Monday, May 16, 2011 - 03:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

just a thought, but could it be that the farms that see a difference in the sex has to do with timing?

I have read that a study showed y sperm tend to swim faster but die quicker, while x sperm swim slower and live longer (I have no idea how true this is, just what I have read). So, with this in mind, if it is true, when we ship semen we generally time it much closer, increasing chance of colts; live cover we tend to go every other day unless the stud is very popular.

Interesting to note, I bred to a stud who only has 2 fillies on the ground, I have one of them, His semen was so poor in had to be counter to counter. I inseminated the mare that night, and was freaking out that three-four days later she was still in heat. She did take, she foaled a filly (the only filly she ever had).

anyway, just an observation, I wouldn't say anything is fact based on that. I too would say we are 50/50 with shipped semen, with a slightly higher number of colts.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3235
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, May 16, 2011 - 08:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unfortunately I think you will find that the "study" that you read was in fact just someone's idea and not a peer-reviewed scientifically-based research paper. The reason that I say that is that I have heard it so many times, but nobody can actually point me to a peer-reviewed published scientific study (and I've looked myself too).

The issue with the idea is that if that were the case, then when breeding with frozen semen (which has to be done no more than 12 hours before or 6 hours after ovulation) pretty much all one would get would be colts - and it doesn't happen.

Similarly, as I note above in a prior post, after years of shipping semen to countless different farms from a great number of different stallions, I have not seen a bias towards colts (or fillies).

If you want to try and hypothesize an individual farm situation, try this one:
  • Out of 54 consecutive foals, 52 colts.
  • Methods of breeding: Frozen, fresh, and cooled shipped semen.
  • Timing of breeding: Varying from 72 hours prior to through to 15 hours after ovulation.
  • Duration of years - around 12.
  • Locations: Colorado, California, Oklahoma.
  • Breeding manager was the same throughout.
If you can come up with an explanation, please provide it. We're talking about our own breeding operation with our own horses (it doesn't seem to happen with client's horses!!).

So don't try and tell me it could be an individual farm thing, 'cos I haven't seen it happen anywhere else!!!
 

Karen Knight
Neonate
Username: Sparkskaren

Post Number: 9
Registered: 08-2010
Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - 07:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have had 23 foals in the last 16 years all have been colts i have not had a filly since 1995 hoping this year for at least one filly how much longer can i have colts for. all have been live cover and chilled semen
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3239
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - 09:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darn Karen - we must have caught the infection from you!!! :-)
 

Kate Goshorn
Yearling
Username: Kateg

Post Number: 99
Registered: 06-2010
Posted on Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - 01:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just in case anyone is interested. XY inc. is a company in Fort Collins, CO which does sex selection for horses, cattle, sheep etc. I have never worked with them, but met the vet when I was in school there, and the technology at the time was cutting edge. Just thought some might find this interesting. Web site is http://www.xyinc.com/
 

Karen Knight
Neonate
Username: Sparkskaren

Post Number: 10
Registered: 08-2010
Posted on Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - 07:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yey another colt born last night.
 

hidden lake stable
Weanling
Username: Hiddenlakestable

Post Number: 22
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Thursday, May 19, 2011 - 06:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yikes! I'd cry, I love fillies, but I am better off having colts, I am always sure to sell them; the fillies I get attached to.

maybe that is carried over from humans? isn't there a study on that with human sperm? Of course it could be an old wives tale. :-)
 

Karen Knight
Nursing Foal
Username: Sparkskaren

Post Number: 11
Registered: 08-2010
Posted on Friday, May 20, 2011 - 08:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have finally had a filly, a beautifull palomino filly (dont tell the husband but she is staying )
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3244
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, May 20, 2011 - 09:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

See - that's because you started posting here (we aim to please :-))!!!
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 2811
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, May 20, 2011 - 10:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Congatulations Karen! Yea for those fillies..post some pics!
 

Angel Portice
Nursing Foal
Username: Porticea

Post Number: 11
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, May 20, 2011 - 12:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

23 foals in 16 years and ALL Colts OUCH? Wouldn't that tell you that Karen is breeding too close to ovulation? Wouldn't you increase your chances of a filly by breeding a day earlier if the mare is in heat and willing?

Just a discussion point but we had that problem with a stallion years ago. We would always wait until the mares were well in heat before covering them. As a rule the 3rd day then every other after that. We changed him up and started breeding them on the 2nd day of heat and every other.....FILLIES galore the next year. The first year he had had fillies ever. He had been raised, shown and bred at the same farm his whole life so always had the same practices done. Once we took the vets advice and changed things up....GIRLS.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3247
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, May 20, 2011 - 03:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Angel - I actually addressed that point specifically in a post higher up on this thread...

Not! :-)
 

Chris
Yearling
Username: Galaxy

Post Number: 87
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Saturday, July 30, 2011 - 04:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For what its worth (for interest's sake) the last 3 seasons my pony stallion has left 7 colts and 1 filly all by chilled except last season the trend was reversed to 6 fillies and 1 colt...over time I expect it to get pretty close to 50/50. Would it be plausible to suggest that with frozen the XX (female) would be a slightly stronger bond than XY (male) and present with a slightly higher % of fillies?
 

Gypsy Cob
Weanling
Username: Gypsy_cob

Post Number: 38
Registered: 01-2010
Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2011 - 07:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All very interesting. We have a PICKY stallion who only likes to breed the mare once, if you think you can convince him to breed a mare more than that then your kidding yourself. He has run in a herd situation all his life. We have only had three fillies from him, all partbred.
Last breeding season he was kept on his own which made him less fussy and he would cover a mare on day two of her cycle (before it was only right before ovulation) HOPEFULLY we will get our first purebred daughters from him as that was the aim re this experiment of breeding once and on day two... all mares were scanned PTIF.
The mares and stallions we experimented with before this have had a very high strike rate of foaling down fillies.

This season just gone we used four different stallions (all our own) over a good number of mares - some we tried for fillies, this included all of the purebred mares bar one ESPECIALLY those who have only ever produced colts so it will be interesting to see... you never know your luck in the big city LOL
Others we tried to breed closer to ovulation... my aim there was to see if the experiment will hold any water and also I think these mares would produce nice kids ponies so geldings would be preferable
 

Gypsy Cob
Weanling
Username: Gypsy_cob

Post Number: 47
Registered: 01-2010
Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 06:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok so, for those interested re conception of colts v's fillies depending on the time bred, we have two foals on the ground now with about 10 more to come. The first mare was bred right at the "end" of of her cycle, we got a colt.
The second mare was covered once on day two, we have a filly.
 

Gypsy Cob
Weanling
Username: Gypsy_cob

Post Number: 49
Registered: 01-2010
Posted on Monday, November 07, 2011 - 02:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Next mare has foaled a filly. Bred early in cycle.

The one due after this was also bred early, she is about to foal (well due nowish), again after her we have my spotted mare, bred late.
 

Gypsy Cob
Yearling
Username: Gypsy_cob

Post Number: 51
Registered: 01-2010
Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 06:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bred early to mid cycle, foaled silver colt
 

Gypsy Cob
Yearling
Username: Gypsy_cob

Post Number: 52
Registered: 01-2010
Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2011 - 10:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Spotted mare bred late in cycle just foaled a silver spotted colt.
 

Shelley Housh
Weanling
Username: Sterling_shagyas

Post Number: 29
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 12:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

5 colts, 4 fillies since 2007- all live cover except 1 colt by frozen semen shipped to AU. I usually cover the mares once as soon as she is in standing heat and that is usually all it takes. Will be interesting to see the numbers on the frozen semen. There is another one due AU this month, then hopefully 3 more next year in AU and Canada. Just shipped 19 doses of semen to AU. : )
 

C. Krauss
Neonate
Username: Mari08

Post Number: 5
Registered: 01-2012
Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2012 - 05:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We have a 50/50 average.

Another wive's tale I had heard said is that rather it being the stallion's fault (his X or Y swimmers being either fast or slow), it is the mare's physical body environment that determines the tale. As the wive's tale goes, if the mare's body perceives a drought, more colts will be born. If there is a period of abundance, more fillies are born. Supposedly the "stress" or "abundance" produces a slight change in the chemistry which can make it more favorable to the Y or more favorable to the X sperm. Supposedly there was a study done on kangaroos in Australia (published in 1983 by Walter Sullivan) that found these correlations. Although, kangaroos, being a different species, have little to do with equines in any sense.

My mares are always in a state of abundance... therefore, I should be having all fillies (I'd be in total bliss, albeit with a sad pocketbook, since I only sell the colts). I doubt Jos' herd is in a perpetual state of feed stress causing the birth of all colts. It would be hard to do, but if we were able to gather data world-wide, I'm betting it would be roughly 50/50.
 

Veronique Dumas
Weanling
Username: Formosus

Post Number: 38
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, January 13, 2012 - 11:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

C. Krauss
The study was done on horses not kangoroos and you have it backward. Mares that are on a upswing in their body conditions conceive more colts then mares that are in a declining body conditions.

Link:
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/breeding/foalsex-121.shtml

Still no garantees and I'm certainly never starving a mare to try.
I suspect Jos and Kathy's mares are fed spectacularly well at just the right time!
 

C. Krauss
Nursing Foal
Username: Mari08

Post Number: 11
Registered: 01-2012
Posted on Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 07:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Excuse me, but the study I was referring to took place in AUSTRALIA and it was indeed on kangaroos and it was Walter Sullivan who performed the study. And in the cases of KANGAROOS, a deficiency of food resulted in more female births.
http://www.nytimes.com/1983/08/16/science/ratio-of-male-kangaroos-to-female-offs pring-tied-to-survival.html

QUOTE:
"The thesis is that ''poor environmental conditions will lead to production of the cheaper sex.'' The ''cheaper'' sex, in this context, is the one that places the smaller demand on the mother, namely the female, which tends to be smaller."

And as I clearly stated, kangaroos have little to no bearing on the equine since they are a different species.

I guess I should also clarify what I meant with my statement of "my mares are always being in a state of abundance" - I meant they are always rather on the fat side and they are, therefore, always on a controlled low-sugar diet. On the low-sugar diet, they should be conceiving all fillies, but we clearly get 50/50.

(Message edited by mari08 on March 31, 2012)



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