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Question about French AV

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Methods » Question about French AV « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Barbara Lewis
Weanling
Username: Baraka

Post Number: 33
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Friday, May 15, 2009 - 12:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The rubber in my Missouri AV has started sticking together, giving me reason to think I might need to shop for a new AV. Jos, I know that you prefer the French AV. I'm honestly reluctant to change AV models, but do see a couple of things I might like about the French one. A main question is whether or not accessories for my Missouri will work with a French AV?

I use regular collection bottles, with an adaptor. I personally prefer this to baby bottles. I also prefer not to use AV disposable liners. For whatever reason, my stallion tends to split them on a regular basis, losing a good percentage of the collection and making an awful mess. For me, liners are out.

If you don't mind, can you give us a short comparison in the French and Missouri AV? Why do you prefer the French over the others?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2426
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, May 15, 2009 - 03:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The French INRA model AV has all of the advantages of the Colorado and Missouri AV's, but none of the disadvantages. It:
  • Holds less water than the Colorado, so it's lighter, and weighs about the same as the Missouri when filled;
  • Has a hard outer shell like the Colorado, so is more stable than the Missouri;
  • Has the hard outer shell, so holds heat better than the Missouri, more like the Colorado;
  • Has a latex hood that gives glans stimulation like the Missouri, but is movable, so can be "snugged down" for a stallion that likes lots of glans stimulation, or can be moved out or removed entirely for one that doesn't;
  • Is not as long as some Colorado models, so there is little to no risk of heat shock to the sperm;
  • It has a single latex liner like the Colorado, so if a replacement is needed it can be acquired cheaply, unlike the Missouri which requires replacement of most of the AV;
  • As it has the single latex liner, a spare can be kept on hand cheaply in case of puncture (unlike the Missouri, which requires you have 2 AV's);
  • It has TWO HANDLES which makes handling a pleasure!
I could probably add more if I though about it, but that's just off the top of my head.

I have responded to your question about disposable liners on this thread which should solve your issues. I always use disposable liners, and have had only 1 horse in all the years I've been collecting that we ended up using a latex liner for, and that was early in his remedial training... :-)
 

Barbara Lewis
Weanling
Username: Baraka

Post Number: 37
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Friday, May 15, 2009 - 04:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Any idea as to why these are so hard to find and not more popular? Who sells them? I looked at IMV. They have a list of products, but no pricing.

I am also a little concerned about how small the end where one puts the collection bottle appears. Does the collection bottle adaptor that I have for my Missouri fit this Inra model?
 

Barbara Lewis
Weanling
Username: Baraka

Post Number: 38
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Friday, May 15, 2009 - 05:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One last question. Filling the French AV. For my Missouri, I use the funnel made for filling the AV. I can't tell in your photographs exactly how the opening is made for the water. Will this Missouri funnel screw into this opening, or is some other method advised. I had adapted my sprayer for the AV originally, but it was a hassle, so I changed it back and prefer the funnel. Without a sprayer alteration, is this easy to fill and empty? I HATE trying to get all the water out of my Missouri.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2429
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, May 15, 2009 - 05:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As previously noted, the latex cone on the INRA AV is movable. It is therefore not fixed, and not designed to have a collection bottle attached. Also as previously noted, it is undesirable to not use a disposable liner, and with a disposable liner there is no need for an adaptor, as the liner can be attached to baby bottle by insertion of the liner through the "ring" lid, and then screwing the lid in place (see the article on putting together the "French" AV.

The opening to fill with water is small, although I believe they have altered the design on newer models. One can however either place a small funnel into the opening and pour water in, or if you have a sprayer attachment for your sink, remove the sprayer and run the water straight in from the hose. Either method is easy and works well - and is less tricky than filling a Missouri AV (which has a smaller opening than the INRA AV).
 

Barbara Lewis
Weanling
Username: Baraka

Post Number: 39
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 11:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Jos. Yes, I had read the article about assembly, but I'm really stubbornly fond of not fiddling around with a liner. I have a lot of arthritis in my fingers, so cleaning an AV is a lot simpler for me than trying to deal with disposable liners - not to mention the problem of my stallion ripping them. Maybe it is easier with the Inra. I'll at least give it a try. I just wanted to know, if I didn't use a liner, where the collection bottle would be attached, and how?

We'll see how it goes. Thank you. Barbara
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2433
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 02:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

if I didn't use a liner, where the collection bottle would be attached, and how?

The reusable latex liner, which will attach to the collection bottle in the same way as a disposable liner, which really means that it will be the same attachment technique for both disposable and latex liner, but with one you throw it away, and the other you have to wash it, rinse it, dry it, store it properly... It all seems a no-brainer to me, as we don't have time to do that with all the collections we do each year!! :-)
 

Solaris
Neonate
Username: Solaris

Post Number: 5
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 07:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We have just invested in the new Inra AV as our boys were all familiar with it at our previous collection centre. However the difference between the old and the new one is the size of the opening for filling it with water, a funnel is no longer required and now fits directly under a running tap, which is ideal for us as we simply set our water thermostat at 65d/c providing us with water at the ideal temp.
We have four stallions all varying in length and width and it suits all of them. I also suffer from tennis elbow so the lightness of this AV is a huge advantage for me.

(Message edited by solaris on June 16, 2009)
 

Barbara Lewis
Weanling
Username: Baraka

Post Number: 41
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Wednesday, July 29, 2009 - 11:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now where can we buy one? I'm really gambling as my Missouri is getting "sticky-er" by the day/collection. Thankfully (I guess) most clients are sending their mares here this year for live cover, but I know I must bite the bullet and replace it SOON!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2561
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, July 30, 2009 - 12:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The only place to buy the INRA (French) AV in the USA is from IMV directly - follow that link for details. There's a link at the top of the page that you are taken to for contact information.
 

Barbara Lewis
Yearling
Username: Baraka

Post Number: 57
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 07:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I've made it to spring, and can't procrastinate any longer. I have to get a new AV. Has the French AV been discontinued from IMV? I've been all over their site, and only find the Missouri. Even their links to the INRA brand AV, has only info about a Missouri. I have to admit that it makes me a little nervous to purchase equiptment that is so extremely difficult to find. Do you know of ANY other place where one of these may be bought, or at least find more pricing/ordering information?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2749
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, March 10, 2010 - 09:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The INRA model AV is advertised on the IMV site here. You have to scroll down (using the scroll bar built into the page at the right) past the Missouri model AV.

The only place that the French (INRA) model AV is marketed in the USA is through IMV.

Do not use the IMV directions for assembly when you get it - use our directions! (Follow that link for them).
 

Barbara Lewis
Yearling
Username: Baraka

Post Number: 58
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 07:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you. I was clicking on the little icon next to the words, "Artificial vagina INRA model" which naturally took me to only Missouri parts. I emailed them a couple of days ago to try and find out the pricing and how to order.... am still waiting for a reply. I guess I'm just too accustomed to going to a site, placing an order, and going on to the next thing. Frustrated, but then it's been a long day. Thank you Jos.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2752
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2010 - 10:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Call them:

1-800-DIAL-IMV (1-800-342-5468)(Canada and USA Only)
 

Barbara Lewis
Yearling
Username: Baraka

Post Number: 60
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 05:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you. I did that. For those others who may be interested, the price is $423.13. An extra innerliner is $93.73. The girl I spoke to did not know the weight. Weight is important to me, as I have arthritis in my hands.

With that being said, the weight of my Missouri, when filled with water is no more than 10 lbs. Can you give me an idea of the weight of the INRA, when filled?

(Message edited by Baraka on March 12, 2010)
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2754
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 06:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Approximately the same as the Missouri. It's a lot easier to hold onto than the Missouri though as it has two firm handles! :-)
 

Barbara Lewis
Yearling
Username: Baraka

Post Number: 61
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 05:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I purchased the French AV and used it for the first time today. Realizing that one must get use to new equipment before making a judgement, I restrained myself from screaming.

You are right that the weight is about the same as the Missouri, and it is easier to hold. I did, however, find one HUGE flaw in the design.

First, let me say that the company did not send the disposable liners I had ordered, so I had to use the latex one that came with the AV. I repeat... I used the liner provided by the company and made for this AV. I had no disposables, nor did my veterinarian, or fellow breeders. It didn't take long to realize why you are such a strong advocate of the disposable liners with this AV, apart from the cleaning issue.

The opening in the hood is ridiculously small, so that once the latex has run through it, it is so tightly bunched up that there is no possible way that semen will get through into the collection bottle. It was also so tight that it was a struggle just to pull it through the opening. Also, the thickness of the latex, not to mention that it has to be bunched up, made it impossible to screw the cap on to hold the collection bottle.

I ended up removing the hood, attaching my Missouri bottle adaptor cap, with rubber bands, to the latex liner and doing it that way. It was then the same as a small Colorado, with two handles. IF I keep this AV, I see no alternative but to cut the hood opening to make a hole big enough to be serviceable, and I do hate to do that. Yes, I will try a disposable liner first :-).

I personally think the small size of that opening is crazy, and cannot imagine why they have made it so small, especially given that something has to be gathered up to go through it. Enlarging it would make all the difference in the world in this product.
 

Coyote Ridge Roans
Neonate
Username: Crroans

Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2010
Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 08:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos,

We are also looking at purchasing a new AV. We had the chance last year to experiment with a French AV and really liked it. Both of our stallions are trained to a phantom, but our older (more "naturally" experienced) stallion seemed to prefer the Missouri model. He is quite picky about temperature, pressure, etc., and typically makes several attempts before providing us with a collection. Have you seen this in stallions that have been accustom to more natural cover? What, if anything, can you recommend that we do differently to the French to get a successful collection, on the first attempt?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2790
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 08:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The reason for the small size of the opening in the hood is quite simple - it's designed to provide glans stimulation when the stallion thrusts against it (simulating the cervical opening), and if it were larger, as latex is flexible, there would be a distinct possibility of it stretching adequately under pressure of the penile thrust that the glans of the penis could pop through, and then of course the elasticity being what it is, it would clamp around the penis just behind the glans as though you had put a rubber band on the penis. Quite apart from the potential for major disasters resulting from the discomfort to the stallion, I suspect it would also "ruin the moment"! :-)

Which latex liner did you use for the inner liner? There should be one thicker and one thinner. The thinner one is the interior liner. While we don't like not using a disposable liner, we have on rare occasions for a variety of reasons used the thin latex liner, and with no problems such as you describe. I will agree that the attachment to a baby bottle is difficult though, and if we are unable to attach it to the baby bottle (and incidentally, we use a Playtex model baby bottle, which has a wider opening, and attaches easier), then we simply duct tape a baby bottle liner to the distal end of the latex liner which works well. In mitigation for the design, it is actually designed for use with a glass bottle attachment (not a baby bottle), which we don't like, but which with the added weight of the glass bottle would straighten out the liner somewhat as it hung down (by gravity).

Incidentally, our advocation of the use of disposable liners has nothing to do with the use of the French AV! I started using disposable liners 20+ years ago with my Missouri, and continued using them when I switched to a Colorado, and saw no reason to change my philosophy when I started using the French INRA AV! In a pinch, you can use a rectal sleeve as a disposable liner as long as the stallion isn't too "thrusty" (which can cause it to rip). I consider disposable liners an essential part of the cleanliness aspect of collecting semen - personally, I wouldn't want to wash out a condom and use it again, so I don't see why I should expect my stallion to!!!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2791
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 09:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Coyote Ridge: Stallions are individuals, so one sees all sorts of different behaviours when collecting. It might just be the behaviour he has.

One thing that we will do when dealing with a stallion that is a little slower to respond is to heat up the AV to the warmer end of the 45-54° C spectrum - and note that is the internal temperature of the AV, not the water temperature going in (which is usually going to have to be around 55-60° C to get the final lumen temperature one wants) - HOWEVER... although that often works well, with older stallions that have done a lot of live cover, one often finds that a cooler and looser AV is preferred! If it were me, I would probably warm it up and see what his response is - he'll tell you pretty quickly if he does or doesn't like it! And then adjust down to cooler if needed from there. You might try it a little looser to start with though as well as hotter.

There's really nothing different with the French AV that there is with any other, save the adjusting the distance of the hood from the end to accommodate stallions that like more or less glans pressure. Other than that, it's all the same variables - heat, cool, tight, loose, move it, keep it still etc.
 

Coyote Ridge Roans
Neonate
Username: Crroans

Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2010
Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 10:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great details to Barbara's concerns and our questions, as well.

Thank you!
 

Barbara Lewis
Yearling
Username: Baraka

Post Number: 62
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2010 - 07:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos,thank you for the explanation. It makes sense from one prospective, but the problem remains. I still maintain that the opening could be somewhat larger, eliminating the problem I was having, but not so large as to cause the stallion to penetrate through. The way the latex is rolled on that end gives it quite a lot of strength. I will be using it again tomorrow, and will try to pay closer attention to fit and pressure on that end. Problem is, I won't be able to use the hood.

Yes, I was using the thinner latex liner, and still won't have disposable liners for a few days. I do realize that the thinner disposable liner should work better.

The collection bottle I use is from the Missouri kit that comes with their disposable liners. It has a nice big opening, and cc measurements. There is a ring to screw on, but it was impossible for me to use it over the latex.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2794
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2010 - 10:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The collection bottle used with the Missouri kit has a considerably smaller opening than a Playtex baby bottle.



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