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Anybody do their own ultrasounding?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Methods » Anybody do their own ultrasounding? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Mabel
Neonate
Username: Mabel

Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 10:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anybody on here do their own ultrasound work? A couple months ago we bought an ultrasound from Fisher Biomedical (they rock by the way, GREAT customer service)

I was just wondering if anybody else on here does their own ultrasounding and what your learning experience was like?
 

Cindy Dawson
Nursing Foal
Username: Cindy97

Post Number: 11
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 09:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Mabel,
I do all of my own ultrasounding. This will be my third breeding season. The first year I bred 5 mares, got 5 babies. I found that one mare in particular was a challenge and had to have my vet double check me on that one. I'm lucky that my vet is a wonderful teacher and that even though he is an all around vet, breeding is his all time favorite. My first pregnancy check was twins and I had to have the vet come a pinch one off.
Last year I bred 8 mares and I'm expecting 8 foals. Again, there were a few things that I had my vet oversee, one mare needed infused with antibiotics. I just work closely with my vet and he is happy to give me advice and discuss issues. Buying the machine and learning to do it myself has been a super smart financial decision for me and I've discovered that I totally love doing it! If you want to discuss further, feel free to email me at cindy97@msn.com. Good luck!
 

Mabel
Neonate
Username: Mabel

Post Number: 7
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Wednesday, April 15, 2009 - 08:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Cindy!

Thanks so much for replying! I have been doing our own ultrasounding for about a month now and have scanned 15 mares. I love it! Being able to scan mares on my own time and not on my vet's has been great.
For awhile I was having a problem with follicles looking flat on the screen but Fisher Biomedical (where I bought the machine) has been great in walking me through every step.
Right now I'm having a bit of trouble finding my second pregnancy. The mare is not teasing in so I'm fairly positive she took but I can't seem to find the embryo. I'll call my vet out to try if I can't find it again tomorrow.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your learning experience! Anybody else?
 

paula mcrae
Neonate
Username: Paulamc

Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Monday, April 20, 2009 - 06:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hi, yes i do all my own ultrasounding too. i am in australia, so our breeding season finished 2 months ago. this was my second season of doing it all myself, after getting a vet bill one season of $24 000 and NO pregnancies, so i went out and bought the scanner and all the gear

i had no one to teach me, my vet was not interested in helping me at all of course, but i had been watching him scan for 10 years and had asked alot of questions. i then bought a whole bunch of books on the subject and away i went. It was very hard at first, but now in my second season, i know alot more, and 5 of the 5 mares i inseminated are in foal, which is way more than i ever got from any vet

i went to california to do the course run by Jim Kubiak, which i highly recommend, to learn how to handle semen, freeze semen, collect stallions and calculate breeding doses, plus inseminatin mares

I did get the vet a couple of times this season when i wasnt sure what i was looking at on the scanner, but in general, i can t recommend it highly enough, and you will have alot more success doing it yourself than through a vet, as you make more effort than the vet can or wants to

i do have trouble with CLs, i am not that good at identifying them all the time and sometimes have trouble with preg testing too, but i am sure all that will come with time

i am now grateful that i had that huge vet bill, as without that i would never have gone out and bought all the equipment and taught myself to ultrasound

paulamc
 

brian anderton
Nursing Foal
Username: Walkingdelight

Post Number: 13
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Monday, June 01, 2009 - 09:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have done my own for the last 12 years and I taught myself. First you MUST be able to palpate in order to know what your looking at on the ultrsound. I learned by keeping two mares up in barn and palpating every other day till I could find everything. Next a set of stocks to put them in is a must have. For someone who wants to learn, I recommend Equine Reproduction by McKinnon and Voss, it has proved to be the best book on the market for all aspects. Lastly be careful, a rectal tear all the way through is usually fatal.
 

Chuck Lewter
Nursing Foal
Username: Chuck

Post Number: 16
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Friday, June 05, 2009 - 11:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I bought a new machine last yr and took a 3 day course on ultrasounding. It has been the best investment I have ever made concerning my horses. Of course, there is a learning curve but to have the freedom to scan whenever and however many times without worrying about the cost of having the vet come out is priceless. Well actually a little over 5,000 by the time training and books were bought. But well worth the expense. I scan 6 mares here on my property, 4 are safe in foal, one the jury is still out, the other is not being bred. In 2 yrs of scanning my own mares, at $50 a scan from the vet, I have more than paid for this unit. Not only does it give you freedom to scan on your schedule or mare's but it opens a whole new world of physiology, anatomy and a greater understanding of how the mare's reproductive system works. I could go on and on about the benefits and reasons why a breeder should make the plunge. I'm not supposed to advertise on here so if anyone is interested in an ultrasounding course, please email me and I will send you the information. I have been able to detect pregnancies as early as 10 days from ovulation.

I just reread a post above that mentions Jim Kubiak. GREAT course and instruction. He also teaches several other courses dealing with reproduction.

(Message edited by chuck on June 05, 2009)
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 339
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 06, 2009 - 12:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chuck Lewter wrote. I have been able to detect pregnancies as early as 10 days from ovulation.

WOW I have never heard of the best theriogenoligest in the field being able to do this with ultra sound!!!!! Maybe you can teach them how.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2470
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, June 06, 2009 - 10:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pregnancies can be detected as early as 9 days in some cases. We routinely u/s mares for pregnancy status on-farm at 12 days.
 

Chuck Lewter
Nursing Foal
Username: Chuck

Post Number: 17
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 01:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I also use the 12 day as a target for determining but just because a mare ovulates doesn't mean it will fertilize that day. My understanding and from what I have seen, it could take another 3 days. Maybe Jos can educate us a little here.??
Thanks

I'm going to look at my saved scan photos and try and post a real early photo.

OK, where are the instructions for posting photos rather than a URL

(Message edited by chuck on June 07, 2009)
 

Chuck Lewter
Nursing Foal
Username: Chuck

Post Number: 18
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 05:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Disregard, sorry, I read the rules and I can't post the photos but here is a link to an early embryonic sac. I believe this one was 10days post ovulation. It's not the clearest example but the sac is plainly visible dead center of the uterine horn.

http://www.chuck.clydesdales.net/2d480e00.jpg

Too small to measure but never the less, the beginning of a fertilized egg.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2472
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 10:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While an oocyte could be fertilized as much as 3 days after ovulation (which would be unusual), once the 6 hour PO mark is reached, there is a slight increase in EED and reduction in actual establishment of pregnancy. Once 12 hours PO is reached, the increase and decrease (respectively) becomes significant.

Most of the better ultrasounds (and ultrasonographers) will indicate that a conceptus is X number of days +/- Y number of days (e.g. 12 days +/- 2 days, so somewhere between 10 and 14 days). Some people get really hung up on conceptus diameter, and all I can say is "don't!" :-) I have seen people give Prostaglandin F because they consider a conceptus "too small for the gestational duration". Give it a chance! In many cases, it's small simply because of variation or - as Chuck noted - an unknown point of ovulation. Having said that, if you know you're at 23 days and you have a 14 day diameter conceptus, well, you're probably in trouble! :-(

As far as adding photos to the board - you can't. It's a security measure that also saves us both bandwidth and server space. Sorry, but you'll have to use a photo host and add the URL. Details are given in the board help section (but I now see you figured that out! :-))

I should add that there are some early ultrasound images available in the article about embryonic images on this site.
 

Carol K
Weanling
Username: Rodawn

Post Number: 28
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Saturday, June 13, 2009 - 11:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wonderfully informative. I, too, am considering getting a machine. What did yours cost, Mabel? And specifically what is the machine you got?
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 1995
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 06:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would love my own machine too. I am seriously considering getting on in the future, but I'm kinda scared I won't know what I'm doing and hurting my mares.
 

Chuck Lewter
Nursing Foal
Username: Chuck

Post Number: 19
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 06:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Carol, Marilyn,

You can buy a refurbished or used one for under 5000. I see them regularly for 3500 and 4000. The procedure is scary if you have never palpated or entered an equine rectum to clean it out. It's best if someone who knows how can guide you through the first couple of times. I highly recommend taking a short course to get you started in the right direction. Learning the geography of the anatomy can only be done by doing. Every mare has similarities but they are all different too. Finding the ovaries can be difficult on some mares.

I can't emphasize how much this has helped my breeding program and what a wealth of knowledge you will gain by taking the plunge. I too, like you was hesitant. Now, I wished I had done this yrs before. If you need assistance in locating a machine, or training, email me. chucklewter@yahoo.com I will be glad to help in any way I can. Good Luck!

6/14-Nancy posted a unit for sale on the breeding equipment for sale forum - $4000 (check it out)

VetPreg Ultrasound for sale
New VetPreg portable vet ultrasound with a 5 mhz or 7.5mhz transrectal probe $3400.
http://www.agriseek.com/sale/e/Equipment/Veterinary/Ultrasound-Machines/

This is the same brand I purchased but they no longer offer my model which was 5000. They were EXTREMELY helpful and great to work with
http://www.vetimaging.com/mindray_dp_3300_repro_details_62.html

Ebay has this unit that sounds like it's in good working order. I'm sure this will sell for 2500 (maybe)
http://cgi.ebay.com/SIUI-CTS-200V-Vet-Ultrasound-Equine-Reproductive_W0QQitemZ230348125635QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item35a1d175c3&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A570%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

Lastly, I have heard good reports regarding this company and their service.
http://fisherbiomedical.com/equine.htm

(Message edited by chuck on June 14, 2009)

(Message edited by chuck on June 14, 2009)
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2485
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 10:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Sonovet 600, which is available from Universal Ultrasound retails new for about $4,500

Unlike the other companies that Chuck has chosen to list, Universal Ultrasound supports our site, and this bulletin board, so we like to see our users support them in return, and ask that you take that into consideration when looking for an ultrasound! :-) They also have excellent prices and customer service!
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2007
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 07:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you for all the information. I like the fact that Jos backs this company and the Sonavet 600.

Jos, where can I go to learn how to use this machine when I do purchase it. I plan on attending your hands on clinic, do you offer a class on this?

Thanks, Marilyn
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2489
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 11:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Teaching ultrasonography to the lay person is a "grey area" of the veterinary practice acts. It can be reasonably argued that one is not performing a diagnostic or treatment, and hence, are not practising veterinary medicine, however, having said that, we are not at this time offering ultrasonography instruction - primarily because of a lack of time!

The above-mentioned Jim Kubiak (www.thebreedersassistant.com) - also a non-veterinarian - offers ultrasonography training, and although I cannot vouch one way or the other for his courses, not having attended one, I do know Jim and believe that they would probably be of value.
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2009
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 11:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you very much for your imput. I value your opinion Jos!
 

Carol
Weanling
Username: Rodawn

Post Number: 42
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 08:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes indeed, thanks very much! :-)
 

Allyson Nutt
Neonate
Username: Acornarabians

Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 01:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos - thank you for the info on "the Breeders Assistant". I too am thinking long and hard about getting my own ultrasound machine, but have been concerned about what to do with it once I receive it! So far we have bred two mares five times each and haven't gotten them settled. They have been checked out and are ok - so it must be timing. I could have bought a machine at least twice now
 

Ann
Breeding Stock
Username: Northernperch

Post Number: 145
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 06:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi all, I am tardy to the party but we are in the process of buying the 5500 from Fischer Biomedical. Shawn is great!!! I am also signing my husband up for the Dr. Kubiak class in Jan 2010.

We spent $4700 on one mare last year alone and we too are apprehensive about doing our own scans however, we feel it is the right course of action. (Ithelped make our decision that or vet was double charging us, charging us for goods and sevrices we didn;t get or did not approve, etc and then giving bogus excuses..."ala, "our comuter system ahs to add finance charges to ALL bills even if they are no past due, just inore them". Ah, rrriiiigggghhhhhtttt.

Anyway, so far the experience with Shawn has been great and, we are looking forward to the remote that is coming out on the 5500.

Also, we have used Exxodus Breeders Supply for misc breeding supplies and can recommend them. We also just bought some Des from BET and they were great too!
 

Mabel
Neonate
Username: Mabel

Post Number: 9
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Saturday, February 27, 2010 - 02:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I love my machine from Fisher Biomedical. Shawn was really great to work with. I, too, bought the 5500.

This is my second season ultra-sounding my own mares and I love it! I feel very comfortable now. It's early in the year so no pregnancies yet, but I expect a good breeding season this year.
 

Chuck Lewter
Weanling
Username: Chuck

Post Number: 21
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2010 - 03:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another 10 day scan. The pregnancy is visible midline right of center. About the size of a pin head. The photo is a little blurry when frozen but much more clear on the ultrasound screen.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0dd28b3127ccef9c73d32b60500000030O09AZtHDRo5a g9vPgA/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
 

Mabel
Nursing Foal
Username: Mabel

Post Number: 14
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 01:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cool pic, Chuck! After the 10 day scan, when is your next follow up preg check? Just curious if you scan them at 10 days than 30 days, and so on. What is your schedule?

Thanks!
 

Chuck Lewter
Weanling
Username: Chuck

Post Number: 23
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Friday, March 12, 2010 - 06:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mabel-I scan at 10, 12, 16, At 25 days, I start watching for heartbeat and to see that the allantoic and yolk sacs look appropriate. Then it's cool to look at the embryo develop and try to discern legs, spine, and other structures. I have yet been able to do any sexing but with more experience I hope to be doing that as well.
Having your own machine gives you the ability and the freedom to scan whenever YOU want to. I have still had to have the vet come and confirm or give me advice on a few mares but only on rare occasions. I had a twinning issue this yr already which the vet had to take care of. Last yr, I had a mare do the PAF (persistant anovulatory follicle) thing all season long. That was so bizzar and quite frustrating, to say the least. The follicle grew to 90cm, even with several hormone injections. It finally started to regress toward the end of July and she did finally come into heat. Anyway, that's a whole different issue and topic to talk about.

Here is the same mare at 16 days.

http://chadeaumountainclydesdales.shutterfly.com/236
 

Mabel
Nursing Foal
Username: Mabel

Post Number: 15
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2010 - 12:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Awesome, Chuck! Thanks for sharing. I love the freedom of having my own machine as well. Easier on my schedule and easier on my wallet.

I had to call the vet out to help me with twins last year, too. I just didn't feel comfortable then, squishing one embryo. I hope I don't run into twins again. But, I'll work with my vet this year and he'll help me do it myself.

I really love scanning my own mares!
 

Kristie Allen
Neonate
Username: Krallen

Post Number: 10
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 07, 2011 - 11:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I took Dr. Kubiak's course this past winter and am ultrasounding my own mares this year. So far, so good but I have a heck of a time seeing CL's. Does anyone have any tips or their own CL images they can share? My machine is one of the Chinese knock-offs from ebay, so adequate but no where near as crystal clear as some of the perfect images I see online. Thanks!



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