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Embryo Size difference?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Methods » Embryo Size difference? « Previous Next »


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GraciesMom (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 207.118.5.60
Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 04:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Had my mare checked today 16days post AI. Vet found something that looked like a 12 day conception. But nothing bigger. She had no edema and no significant follicles on her ovaries..most were around a 15. He also said there was a CL on one ovary? Is there a huge size difference in embryo from day to day. Or can it vary depending on the mare?
 

Solo
Neonate
Username: Solo

Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Saturday, July 02, 2005 - 07:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GraciesMom,

It has been my experience that the size can vary slightly. However, a smaller than normal conceptus can indicate a problem too.

You didn't mention whether your mare was AI'd with fresh or frozen semen. It is my understanding that there is a higher chance of slower (in the beginning) embryo growth with frozen semen.

Anyone else have info/anecdotes on this?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10190
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 12:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

During the early embryonic stages up to about day 15 or 16, the conceptus roughly doubles in size each day. There are some images of early embryonic development available by following that link on this site.

Frozen semen conceptii may lag behind in size by up to 2 days during the same developmental period.

A period of delayed conceptus development has been suggested for unknown reasons with all forms of semen. It does not appear to be mare or stallion dependent.

And yes, a regressing and/or undersized conceptus in poor condition (note that >16 days, unevenness is normal) may indicate one undergoing EED.
 

EqRepro (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 165.121.168.82
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 12:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I will also add that you stated that you ultrasounded the mare 16 days post AI...not post ovulation. Depending on when your ovulated could also signifcantly impact just exactly how "old" that conceptus is.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 67.158.8.162
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 10:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hello,
i work at a breeding farm and we were only 2 for 23 on embryo tranfers and we can't figure out what the problem is. what would be some possibilities that we had poor success?
 

Saucy
Neonate
Username: Saucy

Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 06:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If embryos from frozen semen are smaller and slower growing to begin with it's probably because they're cold!
 

Rachael W
Neonate
Username: Lee

Post Number: 5
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 06, 2006 - 08:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With respect to an embryo that is a day behind what it should be (from frozen semen). If this is EED - are there typical days into development that there are signs I could look for to indicate the problem? As in - are there stats that indicate that it will most likely be lost during a certain time frame?
It is day 16 and the embryo has been consistantly behind 1 day in size. I have u/s her and know when she ovulated so I am sure on the timing of that.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10819
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 09:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

By definition EED must take place during the early embryonic period - so up to about 15 days. The most critical time frame is usually once the conceptus has decended into the uterus (day 6) through the period of need of maternal recognition (12-14 days) to the 15 day mark.

As you noted that the conceptus is from a frozen semen breeding and lagging behind a day, I wouldn't be too concerned assuming there are no other indications of impending loss. Remember too that ultrasounds indicate a margin of error of +/- 2 days (so a 4-day margin) on conceptus size/age, so a 1 day difference may even be associated with the ultrasound and nothing to do with the conceptus at all!!!
 

Rachael W
Neonate
Username: Lee

Post Number: 6
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 11:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks
I checked today and it s a normal looking 20 day pregnancy. I hadn't thought of the machine not giving the correct reading. I have always interpreted the +/- 2 days to be relative to fresh semen pregnancies - not frozen.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 895
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 12:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the +/- 2 days is relative to the measured diameter of the conceptus, and nothing to do with the form of semen... :-)
 

Rachael W
Neonate
Username: Lee

Post Number: 7
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 09:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

no-no!! What I meant was, most people breeding with fresh are breeding every other day, not always using an u/s to determine ovulation and when they have the mare checked - the time of ovulation is not known and the +/- 2 days allows for that unkown.
Maybe this doesn't make any more sense than my other statements.....
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 897
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 11:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the +/- 2 days is relative to the measured diameter of the conceptus, and nothing to do with the form of breeding...
 

Rachael W
Neonate
Username: Lee

Post Number: 8
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 04:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Back again. The mare is now 26.5 days pregnant. There is no embryo evident within the sac. Per Ginther, this becomes visable at day 23-24. She has a follicle on the right side that grew to a 51mm and is now subsiding and just hanging around at about a 48mm. I have been checking her daily since day 21 and watching the follicles development and the lack of an embryo. If the embryo has died - what are the chances that this will eliminate by itself prior to day 35 (thinking of endometrial cups forming). What else can I do to determine if this is a viable pregnancy?
She is not at all interested in the teaser stud that we have.
Thanks
 

Rachael W
Neonate
Username: Lee

Post Number: 9
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 06:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Blow by blow. Checked the mare this morning and the sac is gone. I have given her lutalyse to try and knock out the CL and bring her back into a heat cycle. It will be interesting to see what happens to the follicle on the opposite side that has been hanging around for a week now.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 923
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 02:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The follicular presence in a pregnant mare is perfectly normal, so I would have ignored that (lack of such presence is equally normal too!).

The lack of an obvious embryonic mass is more of a concern and leads me to wonder if what you were looking at was in fact a cyst or free fluid in the uterus? Is that a possibility?

Has she come back into estrus yet following your PGF2a? If so is the "pregnancy" still there?
 

Rachael W
Neonate
Username: Lee

Post Number: 10
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 04:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On the 20th, the follicles on the left side are starting to develop (30mm). The uterus has the pinwheel fluid look to it and the sac is gone. It looks as if it has disentegrated
I started monitoring her at day 11 onward and there was a vesicle that grew each day - altho for the most part was undersized to what a normal pregnancy should have been by a couple of mm. If cysts grow like that then, perhaps it was a cyst but it was in the center of the rt horn close to the uterus T intersection. It was fixed in place. She did not have free fluid from days 11 through to the change in perfectly round shape at about day 17. Her uterine tone was good and felt ''tubular''.
She is showing mild interest in the teaser - at least she doesn't want to take his head off.

Does this sound like what would happen to a pregnancy when given Lutalyse at day 28? It would just disentigrate? Should she be lavaged prior to breeding her again?

Thanks
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 925
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 09:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Everything sounds like a natural progression of PGF2a receipt.

When the cervix relaxes as she comes into estrus, the conceptus remnants (if that is what it is) will pass through it and be lost. Assuming good uterine condition, lavage is therefore not likely to be beneficial, and may actually introduce other pathogens. Oxytocin may be beneficial.

You may want to consider why the mare [apparently] underwent EED. It may just be "one of those things" but was there another reason? Fluid and endometritis peri/post breeding? Post-ovulation breeding? Another reason? You may want to posder those factors before breeding again.



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