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HCG

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Methods » HCG « Previous Next »


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jim holmes (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 63.157.36.235
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 10:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am breeding live cover without benefit of ultrasound. If I give a shot of HCG when the mare is first covered will this shorten her cycle. I am having to breed too many times per mare. I breed every other day until they go out.
 

Kim k
Weanling
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 32
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 10:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jim , I believe when we use HCG , by the 3rd day the mare is out. I believe that we would give the shot of HCG and breed--lets say in the am and then we would cover again the next day in the pm and then on day three she will be out ---

Good luck
 

TX Breeder (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 199.3.209.194
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 12:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jim- Give the HCG within 24 hours of the final breeding. The HCG will only work on a follicle of 3.5 or greater, so giving the shot then breeding is not what you want to do. Some mares will stand to breed and not have a breedable follicle.

Most mares ovulate during that last 24 to 48 hours of their cycle. So, after the last breeding or within 24 hours after it ( if you were not sure that she would not stand to breed again and wanted to try again ) give the HCG. The semen should be viable for 48- 72 hours. By giving the HCG within the 24 hour time frame, she should ovalate while the semen is still viable.If she ovulates earlier,great, no problem with the HCG.

How many times are you covering the mares?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10079
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 02:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Both of the above posts are correct to a point, but I think I am understanding you to say that your problem is that you feel you are breeding the mares too many times and are trying to reduce the number of breedings per cycle?

As TX Breeder notes, you need a follicle that is 35 mm in diameter in order to have a reliable ovulation-stimulation response. This means that arbitrarily giving hCG on a certain day of estrus (heat) will have a variable success rate. On the other hand, repeated breeding and then giving the hCG after the final breeding kinda negates the idea of reducing the number of breedings per cycle...:-)!

The first thing I am wondering is when are you starting to breed the mares? Is your first breeding done as soon as you see the mare displaying estrus, or are you waiting until day 3 of standing heat? This latter plan of action is widely used and will typically reduce the number of breedings per cycle dramatically.

Lets look at some hCG options, advantages and pitfalls:

  • You can contemplate using it on day 3 of standing heat (you will need to be conscientious about teasing mares to determine when they first show heat). If you also breed at that time, you will probably reduce your number of breedings per cycle somewhat, but... many mares will still show heat two days later (when you would normally breed again), so you will be left with the dilemma of whether to breed again, or if she has actually already ovulated. Additionally, there will be some mares that have not yet got to a 35 mm follicle by day 3, so you will not reliably stimulate those mares.
  • You could consider giving the hCG on day 3 and then breeding day 4 (note that I would only consider this option with on-farm breedings where you know there will be no issue getting semen) but... if you do that, there is a possibility that you will "miss" some mares, and you are still going to have those girls that haven't got the 35 mm follicle on day 3.
  • If you are a gambling man, then you could consider waiting until day 4 and giving the hCG and breeding, but... there may be some mares that you miss doing this, as they may already have ovulated by breeding time.
  • Another alternative would be to breed on day 3 and give the hCG on day 4, which would probably give you a slightly better conception rate, but it is probably not going to reduce your breeding numbers greatly, as the hCG will most likely not have stimulated the follicle to the point of ovulation by day 5, when you would normally want to breed again, although some mares will have ovulated by then anyway (so you might be wasting the hCG). Note of course, that it is common for mares to continue to show heat for 24-48 hours after ovulation, so you will be able to breed most mares after they have ovulated.
Hopefully the above will give you some help in deciding which is your best alternative, but be aware that not all mares are going to respond to hCG anyway, and using it without ultrasound or palpation to determine follicular size is going to reduce efficacy and reliability in any event.
 

jim holmes (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 63.157.36.19
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 06:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the information. You have given me several couses of action. I think I am breeding to soon.
 

TX Breeder (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 199.3.209.110
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 12:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That was what I was trying to establish when I asked how may times do you cover the mare. It sounded as if you were starting too soon and breeding more often. The last option on the Jos' list above is what I was describing as your best option. I do not consider 2 covers as repeated breedings. By reducing each breedable mare by 1 cover does deduce the breedings per breeding season.Wasting the hCG is fine, missing the ovulation is not.

I do consider 2 covers normal if I am not following with ultra sound. ( even with AI and ultra sound, there is usually a second insemination)That way, even if your second cover is after ovulation, fine.My use of hCG is to help insure ovulation, not to reduce the breeding cycle. By giving hCG after the final
cover, all should be well.

I find that most mare owners do not understand much about the breeding process, but do consider 2 live covers worth the money. Even in a court of law, I have had to explain to a jury on the behalf of a breeder, why breeding more often is not the ideal condition. Without the benefit of ulta sound, one live cover tends to raise eyebrows and suspicions of due diligence.
 

Kim k
Weanling
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 34
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 04:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Basically what Jos was saying about the on the farm breeding and the hcg shot is what we have done. It has been awhile since i have had to use hcg. Alot of times we would have the vet out to tell us what the size of follicle was and then go from there with the hcg. Normally this would allow us two breedings inside the time frame with the hcg and would be successful with it. We have never been told by the vet to use hcg at the end of the breeding time, always around the third day and then would have a two live covers involved and three days after the shot of hcg the mare would be out of season. That really helped too when covering with a younger stallion .
 

TX Breeder (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 199.3.209.223
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 09:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is all about the hCG actually being able to work on the follicle. I have had mares that built a breedable follicle very slowly and had long breeding cycles. Therefore, waiting until after the last breeding was the most efficient use of the hCG.

I assure you that this is an acceptable protocol.
 

jim holmes (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 63.157.37.22
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 09:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Again, Thanks for the good information. I am breeding every other day and have bred some mares 6 or 7 times. That is way too long. I am starting too early and am trying very hard to get customers mares in foal.
 

TX Breeder (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 199.3.209.223
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 10:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another problem with repeated breedings can be inflammation that may accompany that many penetrations. This can be especially troublesome with older mares. I would consider 3 covers (only once per day, every other day )more than enough. I would be checking a mare with ultra sound that stayed in heat much longer than that. I would suspect a persistant follicle, which would be helped along with hCG when the follicle was of adequate size.

Have a look in the article section about poor uterine clearance. You may decide to add oxytocin to your breeding process as well.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10081
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, May 13, 2005 - 12:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I suspect that if you are breeding every other day and have bred mares 6 or 7 times on a cycle that you were dealing with mares in transitional phase. If you are seeing "heat" phases longer than about 8 days it is certainly worth the expense of an ultrasound to see what is going on. The duration of estrus should hopefully start being shorter for you now as we are entering the height of the physiological breeding season in the northern hemisphere... :-)



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