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Trouble after accidental breeding - Please Help!

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Miscellaneous and Suggestions for a New Topic Category » Trouble after accidental breeding - Please Help! « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Mrs. trotter
Neonate
Username: Missourifoxtrotter

Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 12:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll try to make this as clear as I can... I'm looking for any similar experiences or opinions or suggestions, PLEASE!

I bought a super sweet, papered mare off a gal this spring. She was moving to another state and couldn't take her with her. She had bought the mare about 9 months earlier from a large boarding farm that also had one stud that was kept separate.
When she bought the mare, the owner (who i don't trust as far as I can throw him), did not tell her that the mare was pregnant. The gal had no idea. After a few month the guy who she bought her from and whose farm she boarded was chatting with her. She mentioned something to him about the mare fattening up. He jokingly said something about how his stud had been in with her in a pen for just a little while a long time ago.
Well, fast forward a few months. She wasn't much bigger, so the gal thought nothing of it and the boarder said nothing more about it. In fact, she would show up some days and he had been riding the mare pretty hard... which she didn't really like.
Anyway, she had to move and so she sold us the mare, still totally believing she was not pregnant (be nice to her, it was her first horse). Over a month later, we notice she has milk! about 1 1/2 weeks later, we have a surprise foal!!
I'm excited to have the foal, she's beautiful. The daddy/stud is a well papers fox trotter too.

Now, this is the kicker that I need help on. I've talked to the boarder a few times and his story changes a little every time.
First, they had no idea she was pg
Then, well, they must have been creative over/through the fences,
Then, oh, the gal you bought her from knew all along b/c they were together in a pen for while.

I want to get the foal papered.

This breeder is insisting that I pay him the entire $350 breeding fee.

I guess with 'accidental breeding', i think that's pretty low of h im. I could understand if he asked for half of the $350 b/c we didn't ask for the breeding, but we are asking for the stud verification.

I'm also afraid that he might do this on a regular basis in order to make more $ business from his studd than he might be bringing in otherwise. I don't know how to go about finding out if he's 'accidentaly' bred other mares before selling them and didn't disclose that.

Anyway,
I know that was long-winded, but thanks soooo much for reading it and I'd love ANY feedback!
 

Cjskip
Breeding Stock
Username: Cjskip

Post Number: 698
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 02:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No experience with this, but that would be quite a racket if the whole thing was intentional.

Half the fee sounds fair to me. I'll really be interested in what others have to say.

Congrats on a nice filly!
 

Tracy Smith
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 1385
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 02:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is just strictly my opinion but I don't think you should have to pay a thing! Here's why.

First, if the original owner knew she was bred then he should of sold her for a little more as a mare in foal. Then the person that sold her to YOU should of sold her as the same.

If he DIDN'T know she was in foal then he's an idiot and lost out. You can't go back later when a foal is produced and say "well I want the stud fee now even though we didn't breed her on purpose".

When I bought one of my mares recently she was pregnant. The owner had bred her and her price was reflective of that. I can't imagine her now asking me to pay a stud fee.
 

Phyllis Schroder
Breeding Stock
Username: Shadowbend

Post Number: 118
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 04:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can understand him asking for the stud fee wether it was accidental or not.

I purchased a nice egyptian arabian mare (2 yr old) from someone years back and she hadn't been registered. I found out who the sire was and it was the same deal, if I wanted to get papers on her i would have to pay the remainder of the stud fee (original owner/breeder never paid it off)and he would give me the needed paperwork.
I felt that was fair but really didn't care about getting papers on her or need them for any reason so never even bothered with it.

If you want papers on the foal and the seller didn't give you the neccessary paperwork for such in the sale of the mare and you purchased the mare as is and not with any promises of a registered foal then you have a nice suprise foal but just don't have papers for the resulting foal.

You've already gotten a foal so I can understand him wanting the stud fee if he is expected to do the paperwork for you to register it and increase it's value or such due to being registered.

I would certainly hope he's not accidentally/on purpose covering mares he shouldn't but there are all types out there and you never know.

Unfortunately, the bottom line is, if you really want the foal registered you'll have to come to some type of arrangement with him or just do without the papers.

Hope ya'll come to an agreement.
 

Bobbi Govro
Breeding Stock
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 701
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 10:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a stallion owner...I have a bit of a problem with this whole picture.

First off, as a responsible stallion owner, he should have had to list that mare (no matter who owned it) at the time of exposure on his stallion breeding report at the end of the year. I know that I must list all mares who have been "exposed" not just those confirmed to be in foal. Its a whole $4.00 per mare to do that so its not like it would have cost him a fortune.

Now, that leads to the number two problem and where this guy may be giving you the shaft. Because he didn't report the exposure to this mare, he will most likely incur a fine by the registration organization for failure to list that exposure.

In order to release the breeding so that registration can be done, the stallion owner and the mare owner must both sign the registration release. That could present a problem with ownership changes that have occurred. Not that it can't be done but it may entail more paperwork than what would have been there if it were done properly from the get go.

I have issue with the irresponsibility of this guy putting a stallion in with someone else's mare without their permission. An agreement should have been reached between him and the former mare owner that if a foal resulted in this joining, then an agreeable fee for that foal to be registered should have been mutually agreed upon.

If you do find a compromise, don't be surprised if you should have to do some DNA testing on the mare, foal and stallion to prove heritage and lineage. The other question I have is, are there any other stallions that this mare may have been exposed to? Sure would hate to see you pay a stud fee and go through the hoops and rings to register it only to find out that dna testing comes back bad and you still don't have a registered foal.

Personally, unless you are going to show this foal, I wouldn't waste my time dealing with what I see as a possibly unethical stallion owner. If it makes you feel any better, you always have the option of reporting this incident to the registration agency for the stallion. They don't hold kindly to breeding practices that are not being reported to the agency properly and in kind, are drawing the breed down. I hope that makes some sort of sense to you.

If my stallion were to get out or get in with someone's horse that was not arranged in advance to be bred, I would relinquish any fees and report the exposure. Its my responsibility as a stallion owner to property take responsibility for my horse's actions or my negligence.

I think this stallion owner is asking for the full stud fee because he KNOWS he's going to have some penalities and fines against him for not reporting the exposure. That's my guess anyway.
 

Mrs. trotter
Neonate
Username: Missourifoxtrotter

Post Number: 2
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 10:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ladies
- I so very much appreciate all your suggestions and points of view.
I'm anxious to hear what even more people have to say and any more typical experiences.
It would be easier to pinpoint what the deal should be if his story didn't change so much. If he knew she was bred, then the high price the gal b/f me paid, should cover her as a mare in foal.... plus he bred her on his own time, so i shouldn't really have to pay that half, i don't think anyway, but maybe i'm wrong... if I am, please tell me!
From the breeder's contracts I've found on line, the papering is only a portion of the contract, so in my mind, should be only a portion of the fee.....

any ideas???? help me think this through so when i do call him back i know exactly what i want to say.
 

Mrs. trotter
Neonate
Username: Missourifoxtrotter

Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 10:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bobbi Govro
Thanks sooo much for your input.
A lot of what you said is a little over my head since I haven't dealt with this much before.
I do see this man as unethical and I'd really hate to give him any money. Also, it's hard to tell from his story changing so much, but I think the mare was under his ownership when he bred her, maybe, and then very shortly afterward sold her. He definitely did not tell the gal who bought her that she'd been bred when she made the purchase.
It is definitely a possibility, though that we may want to eventually breed or sell the foal, so that's where I'm trying to figure out if it's going to more than pay for itself.

Now, how do I go about talking to the breeders association about this matter, using the right terminology.
I don't want to call and sound too green around the edges : ).

Oh, and I know I have to have the mare DNA tested, but I haven't heard anything about the foal or stud... any more info on that?

and I'm pretty positive this is the only stud he has. A world champion or something... and the foal looks just like him.

OH, and they are missouri fox trotters, i don't know if that makes a lot of difference or not, but some breeds do things a little differently.

Thanks so much!

(Message edited by missourifoxtrotter on August 22, 2008)
 

Bobbi Govro
Breeding Stock
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 702
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 10:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh...LOL...and "exposure" to me is anything that is together, next to each other, seperated side by side to a fence line or perhaps within even breathing distance! My stallion (and my mares) have found amazing ways to get the job done despite barriers! LOL!
 

Bobbi Govro
Breeding Stock
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 704
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 11:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're welcome. I'll try to put this down in some type of order of "how the procedure goes" for registration of a foal from the time of breeding, on both the stallion and the mare's side. Now, I deal with TB's, QH's & Paints so you are correct in that some breed registries may be different but I think in general, they should typically require some variation of the same paperwork.

At the end of each breeding year, I must file a Stallion Breeding Report that lists all mares reported exposed to mares, including the type of exposure or breeding method (ie: pasture, AI, etc). The beginning dates of exposure to the ending dates of exposure (ie: I pasture breed so my mares are listed from 03/31/07 through 11/30/07 which gives the registry an idea of the time period for which a foal could be presented on this mare for registration). As a stallion owner, I can sign off on the Release Of Breeding if all stud fees/mare care fees are paid up at the time of submitting my Stallion Breeding Report. Now, this gives me two options as the stallion owner. I can accept the full stud fee at time of breeding and then release the breeding or, if I am working out a deal where the mare owner pays half the stud fee upon breeding and the second half upon presentation of a live foal (and I do very few of these as I have had people just "disappear" on me) I don't release the breeding until they have paid the stud fee in full. This protects all of us, including the organization, to ensure that the stallion is getting the proper credit for his foals. Either way, I must report the exposure at the end of that breeding year. The mare owner cannot register the foal without my release of breeding.

Once I file my Stallion Breeding Report, the registry sends me a confirmation of all the mares exposed and what the status of their breeding release is (ie: released or unreleased). If it is released, the mare owner is sent the foal registration form that includes a breeding control number. You must have the breeding control number in order to register a foal. That breeding control number is assigned from the stallion owner's breeding report. (I hope that clarifies how important it is to the mare owner that the stallion owner is ethically reporting all exposures correctly by breeding year end.) Now, we all sit and wait for 340-360 days. LOL!

Once a live foal is presented and the mare owner goes to register it, they do so off of the breeding control number, which cross references the stallion to the mare and the exposure dates, and if everything "jives", then the foal registration usually goes through without incident. In fact, because all of my reports jive, I have yet to be required to DNA test my foals.

For the stallion owner, in my case, it is a $10 a year report filing fee and $4.00 per mare fee. To report a late breeding...the cost jumps to an additional $25.00 late fee and an additional $10 per mare fee. If the breeding is not amended or corrected and the penalties are not paid, and I quote "If an application is received, accompanied by a properly completed and signed breeder's certificate, and the stallion owner or lessee fails to file a properly completed and signed stallion breeding report accompanied with the required fees, the Association may suspend the stallion owner or lessee under the provision of Rune XXXX of the discipliniary procedures if the stallion owner has failed to comply with Rules XXX after due notice." In the event that proper paperwork was submitted incorrectly or amended, it will be required that the stallion, dam and foal will be DNA tested to certify parentage.

There ya go and there ya have it in a nutshell. Its sooooo much cheaper for a stallion owner to just report the breeding (at the minimal cost) and be on the safe side than to risk having to pay all the fines, penalties and risk suspension of your stallion. That's my opinion anyway.

If he was the recorded owner of the dam at time of exposure...HE should be the one that's giving up this stud fee. It was then HIS DOUBLE responsibility to ensure that this breeding possibility was reported. And, in my registry anyway, if he had reported it correctly and he was the owner of both at the time of exposure, DNA testing would not have been required. Now, its turned into quite a little mess. All I have to say is, What a fool this guy was! He should have sold the horse as "possibly bred" with the stipulation that he would provide the breeding information necessary to register any foals that may result. He shouldn't have sold the mare and later come back asking for a fee if she was pregnant. They have such things as pregnancy tests and if she was indeed confirmed in foal, he could have upped his selling price to include the purchase of the unborn foal (in essence, his stud fee).

Here is the website for Missouri Foxtrotters. I would suggest that you email them and explain your situation and see what advice they give you for proceeding. Most registries are very helpful and want to maintain the integrity of the breed.

http://www.foxtrotterfoundation.com/

I hope that I didn't bore you with this long drawn out synopsis of events but I thought it might help educate you on the whole paperwork process of the breeding world. It will hopefully help you out to get from Point A to Point B.
 

Phyllis Schroder
Breeding Stock
Username: Shadowbend

Post Number: 119
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 07:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bobbi has some very good points and I would certainly follow her link to the Assoc. and get all the info I could. And I just reread your post and realized this guy originally owned this mare (is this correct?).
Maybe he did send in a breeding report for last year with her on it, who knows? Very strange deal if he owned the mare.

I'm not familiar at all with the Missouri Fotrotter Assoc. but if they are like AQHA and many others than you are looking at alot of fees beyond the stud fee to get papers.

The sticky part is that no agreements were ever made between any parties concerning the possibility of a coming foal. Due to this it would seem there are no obligations on anyones part to any other party involved.

I think I would sit down and go over exactly what I'd be looking at in fees to get the foal registered and decide from there if it's a worthwhile pursuit or not. DNA testing for parentage alone is going to run you a good $75 each or more.
 

Mrs. trotter
Neonate
Username: Missourifoxtrotter

Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 05:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Phyllis,
That's good advice.
I do need to get ahold of the MFTHBA again, although they weren't very helpful last time when I tried to explain the situation. The gal just said they didn't really have much to do with breeding. And I had already sent for a $50 DNA test on the mare... the gal had told me when i called that that's about all I'd need to get the foal papered, but it sound like I'm finding out there's a lot more to it.
I guess I have my homework cut out for me this week, eh?
Thanks so much!
If anyone thinks of anything else I should think about or ask about or check into, I'd appreciate any more tips.
Thanks!

Oh, and Bobbi, definitely NOT a bore! I very much appreciate all the information and all the time you've taken to post back to me : )
 

Samantha
Breeding Stock
Username: Dressage_diva333

Post Number: 297
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 11:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am both a stallion owner, and have had experiance with a similiar situation:

As a stallion owner, if I saw one of my boys in with somebody else's mare, I would immediatly remove him, and notify the mare owner. It would be my fault, and I would either offer the mare owner the option of registering the foal for half the stud fee. Or, I would offer to pay to get the get the mare a shot of lutalyse to abort early on.

Also, as Bobbi mentioned, us stallion owners must send in a "Service report". The foal will not be eligible for registration unless their dam is listed on the service report for the appropriate year.


I purchased a 4 year old Arab mare from a very nice lady who had rescued her. The lady I bought her from gave me the contact info that she had found on the breeder. The breeder was very sick, and soon after passed away, but I got the information needed to register her if I'd like. The sire is a well known, extremly successful show and breeding stallion. His foals are often exported, and they sell for very high prices. There was a small fee still owed to the stallion owner. I also contacted the owner of my mare's dam (the breeder had leased her). She said that there was still a lease fee owed to her, but because I wasn't the one who owed her, and she just wanted to see the beautiful filly get registered, she told me not to worry about the lease fee. I havn't registered the mare yet, due to lack of funds for the registration fee. But, the people I've dealt with have been very helpful, and realized that I wasn't the one who owed them. They just wanted to see an exceptional example of their horses' offspring be registered.
 

Jenni Luttrell
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 1139
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 08:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mrs Trotter,
All made very good points. I to am a stallion owner who gets to make a report on mares that hopefully are not prego's but thankfully the mares owner is being very kind and I will be required to purchase the foals. Im willing to do this bc the mares owner did not want them bred. They were here for training and I came home one day to find them all running together not to mention one I kept seperate 100% is looking preggers so im thinking some thru the fence action was happening. It is my responsibilty to make sure these foals are registered and not the mares owner. If I was in your stallion owners shoes Id want my incured fees covered had I sold the mare nonpreg, but thats it. My fees would also be a lot less bc id have done it right the first time. I think he should be responsible for anything increased by his negligence in not reporting and you pay the basic reg fee.
Also be well informed but just gracefully go through the hoops with the MFT reg sometimes you get blessed and find someone who will bend the rules a touch bc its not your fault.
 

Diana Gilger
Breeding Stock
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 845
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 10:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm a stallion owner/breeder as well...and the way I look at it, if I had a mare that I sold as unbred, and she turned up bred and had an amazing baby, that's MY fault...as well as my loss. If a mare owner came to me and told me the mare they bought as unbred is bred, (depending on due dates) I'd ask that they first dna the foal to my stallion, then only charge them late stallion report fees. I'd then furnish them all necessary paperwork to register the foal. I would never ask someone to pay the stud fee in this case! They weren't having a mare bred, and definitely were not looking for a bred mare!!!! If I ever sell a mare that I am uncertain about, i include her on the stallion report (just in case)and sell her at an "exposed" price. This just means she's been with a stallion, and I have no idea whether or not she's prego. (too soon after cycling & hasn't been confirmed) Charging a 3rd party who doesn't owe you anything and wants to register their foal is JUST WRONG. IMO. But some people will try to make money anywhere they can....unfortunately, it might be you. I'd dna mare and foal (about 50/each) and have them matched to him before involving the registry. And then explain to them that you have a dna match and an unwilling owner who is irresponsible and doesn't file paperwork ontime. I bet they'll help you out.....but I guarantee they will not help you on a "he said, she said" basis.
 

Devils_advocate
Weanling
Username: Devils_advocate

Post Number: 23
Registered: 09-2001
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 11:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a stallion owner, if I sold a mare as non-pregnant - especially if I knew that the mare had been exposed to the stallion and then not checked for pregnancy status - I would be pretty concerned that the [new] mare owner would have a claim against me for additional mare expenses (extra feed etc.), vet fees, costs of raising the foal, and if she was bought as a brood mare, the additional cost of keeping her "open" for a year while she wasn't bred to the stallion of choice...

I certainly wouldn't be making waves and trying to extort a stud fee for a breeding that I myself performed while the mare belonged to me!!!
 

Bobbi Govro
Breeding Stock
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 710
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 04:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Devils advocate: Amen! I completely agree!

I wish all the luck to this mare owner. I personally am blown away by this action by the stallion owner, expecially since he was the owner of the mare at exposure as well!

Imagine...he sells this mare as non-pregnant. What if the person who bought this mare got a mare that aborted, was infected or worse, died from this pregnancy while this gentleman didn't disclose this at purchase time. I am still just completely blown away by his stance of demanding a stud fee.
 

Mrs. trotter
Neonate
Username: Missourifoxtrotter

Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 10:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, my......

I just got off the phone again this evening w/ the stallion owner.

grrr... i am still shaking from being so very upset.

I am so frustrated right now I'm not even sure I will make much sense.

I called just to ask a few basic questions so that I would know a little more information and to see if he would be will to negotiate a little (which I wasn't even going to bring up if the converstation wasn't going well... which it didn't)...
but before i get into that conversation.
I had one of the gals (a vet and owner/breeder) who is on the missouri fox trotter board give me a call back today. I also read up on the rules and regs on their website.

The gal didn't have a whole lot to say other than I could try to file a complaint with the association but would probably end up having to pay him anyway, and also suggested having my attorney write him a letter.

It is require that he report a stallion report every year and there's supposed to be a fine if not reported or turned in on time.
Well, he has never turned in a report and has never had to pay a fine for it!
That means that I will definitely have to DNA test the foal also, the stud is already tested. That means another $50. The stud owner did finally agree to decrease his stud fee by 50 down to $300 b/c of the DNA test, which he claimed was a steal to do at $50 since the price would just eventually go up and if I ever wanted to breed her I'd end up paying more for it in the future (get an idea of how this guy works?)

Anyway, I'm losing my train of thought again.

He is very sorely upset that I bought this horse for a very very good deal along with an excellent saddle and he didn't get the deal, so he claims that since i bought her for so cheap, i'm still ahead by paying him $350. What!!?? It's not my fault for getting a good deal and I definitely don't owe HIM anything for it!

I also found out that even though he owned the mare at the time of the breeding, the paper work will never show that b/c he never had her registered in his name. He had the man who he bought her from sign his name and not date the papers, so it shows that a different person owned the mare at the time of breeding, which, on paper, exempts him from ownership during breeding, although the other man didn't own her either if you follow the money trail. Grrrr.

He also had the gall the to tell me to just go ahead and sign that guys name to the stallion report b/c nobody checks signatures anyway!

Anyway, in the end, my cell phone ended up disconnecting the call on accident, and I never called him back b/c i was too hot to talk.

Any new suggestions???????????????????????

It looks like I'll be stuck paying extra DNA fees and still paying him $300 if I really want to paper this foal!
 

Mrs. trotter
Neonate
Username: Missourifoxtrotter

Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 10:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, and he also said that if I wanted to get technical, that I should owe HIM fees b/c of her board during the breeding, which makes absolutely NO logical sense.

He's a millionaire, so he can buy any high priced lawyer he wants to :-(

He also told me it wouldn't be wise for me to open this can of worms and get involved. I'm not sure if I can even legally get him on anything! This is definitely wrong... so what do I do?

He also told me that if I had bought the horse from HIM (and not this other gal) and she had wound up 'accidently' pregnant, then he would have given me the papers for free, but since I bought her from someone else, he doesn't feel at all responsible and doesn't owe me anything.

From speaking with other people, though, that does not sound like the case. It sounds like he charges everyone.

Sorry, now I'm' venting... I'd better head to bed and calm myself down a little.

Thanks for any more advice!
 

Diana Gilger
Breeding Stock
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 847
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 10:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miss Trotter, keep in mind that this is just information from my little world i'm about to share with you.......it's just ME.
I tend to be a pretty laid back person, taking life's highs and lows as they come....some things are great, and can take you to the clouds and back, and others are terrible, and bring you back down to normalcy of your cloud.
The only way (for me) to continue to live in my happy little world is to try (sometimes) (when it's OBVIOUS you're against a wall....and it ain't movin'....)to lessen the degree of terrible by just telling myself..."Ok, this guy screwed up, he's a dick (sorry)...I'll make myself the better person, and feel alot better about it if I just take care of it and move on." It's a lot less stress to deal with, and if you got an excellent deal on the mare, pay the guy, get a signature, and move on. Meanwhile, registries DO normally compare signatures....and I have no idea what to do about that part of it. I wish you well...and how important are the registration papers anyway? Wouldn't she be just as magnificent a foal without them?
 

Tracy Smith
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 1387
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 02:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Like Diana stated, this is just ME and what I'D do but if I had zero plans of ever selling the foal and really didn't need her papers, I'd tell the guy to go F himself (to put in bluntly) and not pay him. If you really feel you need the papers because you may sell the foal in the future or breed her in the future (it's a filly right?) then I'd bite the bullet and pay the guy just to get it over with.

I'm mad for you though, he sounds like a complete jerk!
 

Bobbi Govro
Breeding Stock
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 713
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 09:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow. What an obnoxious guy. Well, you have your answer when the registration agency told you that he failed to provide a stallion report. Diana's and Tracy's advise is probably the best route but I personally would be a little turd and file a complaint. I guess I'm just hung up on the whole responsibility of the stallion owner thing. People just shouldn't be standing stallions or owning them if the responsibility isn't there to ensure that other's mares aren't properly respected.

Personally, I wouldn't have anything to do with this guy or his stallion ever again.

My other piece of advice is...don't EVER sign someone else's name to ANY paperwork. That's a good way to get your mare's paperwork yanked by the association and for YOU to loose any good standing. I believe its called fraud. I grew up in the old world (pre-DNA) and "horse traders" used to ship off registered horses that were less than desireable to the meat market, keep the papers, and then find a horse with similar markings and attach papers to that animal. What a blow to any association to have "papered" animals out there that weren't really the bloodlines they say they are. A great many folks involved with AQHA were shunned and banned when it finally caught up to them. Although DNA testing is expensive and cumbersome, I think its the greatest thing since french toast for keeping the integrity of a breed.

Oh...sorry...LOL...another piece of advice. Don't give this guy one red cent until you personally deliver the paperwork to Mr. Obnoxious and have BOTH the registered owner's signature at time of breeding AND his signature down (both owner of the dam and the stallion have to sign it). Again, I'm a bit baffled on how you are going to get this done if he hasn't filed a stallion breeding report. You can have a breeding release form but I don't know how it works if there isn't a report filed to cross match it with a breeding control number. (Maybe that's what the DNA test is for they are requiring...I'm not sure because I do it right the first time around).

I completely understand your desire to get her registered if in fact down the road you may want to breed this filly.

I also think the guy was somewhat threatening to you...I call that bullying. And if thinks so highly of his stallion, then perhaps he should have reported the breeding. I would think he would have more of a leg to stand on by having the breeding reported and THEN demanding a stud fee as he could come back at that point to you and say that the previous owner of the dam REFUSED to pay the stud fee and that is why he is not releasing the breeding. THEN he could perhaps demand it from you, the current owner, in order for the foal to be registered. I don't think that he has a legal leg to stand on with the current scenario, no matter how good is lawyer is, and truth be told when it comes to push versus shove, relinquishing the stud fee would be cheaper for him than hiring a lawyer!

Do what you need to do BUT protect yourself from any further fraud by handing over money and possibly still ending up with void papers, file the complaint with the association after you get your filly registered (at least the association would have it on file...it won't help you but it may help someone else down the road if he's truly bilking money out of people), and then take him to small claims court to recoop your expense.
 

Bobbi Govro
Breeding Stock
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 714
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 09:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh...BTW...we just recently went through something similar to this and here is the legality of it all:

Our lovely and wonderful Angus bull decides every year about this time (between calvings) that he is bored and proceeds to mow down a fence and amble on down the road to our neighbors, Earl's herd of 350, and there he usually stays until November when we round him back up and bring him back to rebreed the last round of cows after they calve. Now, Earl is a great neighbor and he doesn't mind him being there. Two weeks ago, we find out that Earl's old Angus bull, aged around 12, got his butt whooped by our three year old. Hurt him beyond repair. Now, its OUR bull who broke out of the fence and made himself at home at the neighbors. Ultimately, its our fault. This $1800.00 bull is now owned by Earl. Its the least we can do. Although he is only doing what nature intends and dueling for the right to be number one bull in the herd, he killed Earl's bull in the process. The decent and respectable thing to do is to either offer him up to Earl or to reimburse Earl the cost for him to get a bull of his choosing to replace his own. Now, Earl is a wonderful good ole boy who is not upset or angry. He says this is not necessary, but in our eyes, yes, it is. So, the deal is that Earl now "owns" our bull and he is going to give him to us twice a year to breed our small herd for free. Its a nice compromise for all of us. That's what responsible livestock owners do. And legally, the owner of the animal IS responsible for the actions/damage that may occur as a result of that animal.
 

Diana Gilger
Breeding Stock
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 849
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 10:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OH MY GOSH BOBBI!!!! THE 'WALKABOUT' WENT TERRIBLY WRONG THIS YEAR!!! I'm so sorry to hear about that....I'm glad it turned out ok for everyone (amicable)....well, everyone except Earl's bull...You're a great neighbor and responsible, i like that!!!
 

Marilyn Lemke - Asia born 7-11-08
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 1735
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 11:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bobbi, you are a decent, honest and respectable owner. I loved the way you handled this situation. I wish more people were as honorable as you.
 

Bobbi Govro
Breeding Stock
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 717
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 02:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diana and Marilyn: Thanks. Its the least we could do. Goodness...but you are right...the walkabout didn't fair well. But Earl is a great guy and like he said, the bull was older and not been in the best of health anyway. He was so sweet about it because he was like, "Noooo...I'm not taking your bull." But, after we all talked, having a young bull who can sniff out a herd within a 15 mile radius of our farm. It makes more sense to replace his bull with ours (and he does love our bull...hehehe...he got a string of nice babies out of him from last year...oh...and I didn't charge a stud fee! LOL!)and then just "borrow" him twice a year. Our small herd doesn't keep him busy enough and honestly, he will provide Earl with lots of nice calfs for a long time. You hate to loose $1800 but its the RIGHT thing to do. Its our fault. And, the compromise still works out well for the both of us.

Its far more important to be able to lay your head down at night and know that you have the respect of people and a clear mind. Money doesn't mean anything if you loose your neighbor's respect. They are the ones who are there to help when "poop goes to poop"...they all banded together last year when we had a cow and a newborn calf out on the road. They were all rounded back up and in our field before we got home. Simply by the good grace of neighbors who respect you. You can't put a price tag on that!

PS>>>You guys are honorable and respectable too...that's why I like my foal watch buddies!
 

Tahra Sky 3/14
Breeding Stock
Username: Tahra

Post Number: 172
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 02:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would not rush into anything just yet. Don't registries give you up to a year to register the foal? Take your time and work with the registry. Find someone who can help you and will work with you for the best option. I would only pay the guy as a last resort. Horses are pregnant for a long time, so make sure you have a date on your bill of sale so you can show there is no way you had the mare covered. Get your DNA and that will help. If the stallion is on file and the DNA matches but their is no record of the breading itís not your fault. The registry will have to take it up with the owner. I don't think their is any legal way the guy can come after you. He is upset that he doesnít have the foal so he is trying to get an extra buck from you.
 

corina gabel
Breeding Stock
Username: Newyearsbaby05

Post Number: 232
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 02:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

this last year my stallion got out and bred am arab mare at a show... i know i know but the people are more then happy thankgod, but in the same case as what your saying i could then say well you owe me even though you didnt want it, just becuase he did the job. I was crossing my fingers that i didnt get introuble, let alone having the gul to ask for stud fees. You know it really make me wonder what happened to theses people to make money such a big deal. it allways the ones with to much that think they need more. I know that in my case i had to report the cover, even though the baby is not eleigable for registry, i payed the fee and even offered to pay for the vet bills to abort or confirm preg. I dont think that i would have been able to show my face in public if i would have done what this man is doing!!


good luck i think that you ahve a good case to bring to the breed registry and you might jsut get out of it with only the reg. fees! i think that sould be all you have to pay!
 

Bobbi Govro
Breeding Stock
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 723
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 04:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

corina: High Five to another fellow responsible owner!
 

Mrs. trotter
Neonate
Username: Missourifoxtrotter

Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 09:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, corina, I wish i were dealing with you instead!

I guess where it gets a little sticky is that he kind of owned the horse when she was bred.... so it wasn't someone elses..... but he did not disclose or record that she had been bred when he sold her.

And then, i'm 2 people down the line, b/c i bought her from the gal who bought from him... so i'm not sure if that affects things b/c it wasn't directly from him...

i'm still waiting on a call back from another gal at the missouri fox trotters assoc... if she doesn't call me by tomorrow, i think i'll call the president or v.p. of the association.

Any suggestions on a good way to summarize this situation and use the right terminology, so that i make the best possible case for myself and make it as truthful and succinct as possible?
 

Jenni Luttrell
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 1145
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 11:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

be friendly and sound like a real person is my advice but stay direct as well.
Did the woman you bought the mare from register her in her name?
Id say I bought this mare from, girl, who purchased it from, guy. I did not buy her as a pregnant or exposed mare but on , date,
she foaled a nice filly. I have contacted , guy, who is also the stallion owner and the MFT assoication in an attempt to register the filly. The guy wants a stud fee even tho he owned the mare at the time of covering her and I am the 2nd owner hence. He also did not file a stallion report and expects me to pay for his fees b/c of this as well. I really want to register this filly to give her the best chance if I ever need to rehome her. I do not however have hundreds of dollars to spend on registration fees and stud fees that I did not incur myself.

something along those lines is whatd i say you might adjust it to fit the person your speaking with I think someone can help you if the really want to.
 

Cjskip
Breeding Stock
Username: Cjskip

Post Number: 704
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, September 02, 2008 - 03:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Holy Mollie! I've changed my mind. You shouldn't have to pay at all and he should paper her, and pray you don't report him! Although I wonder if he would give you the wrong papers anyway, since he didn't report the "exposure?" Just a thought.

A stallion come onto my Mom's property once and I was wishing my mare was in heat. I told the guy that it was too bad, 'cause I would have had a free breeding. He didn't appear amused at my comment.

Bobbi and the rest, I had no idea it was all so complicated, but I'm really glad the rules are so strict. The DNA thing is great. One knows the horse they bought is the horse they bought, if you know what I mean.
 

Bobbi Govro
Breeding Stock
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 727
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 01:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cj: The DNA thing sometimes seems to be a pain in the butt but I've been so used to it in the TB world because they have long required it before you can register or tatoo them that it just seems "normal" process to me. I'm incredibly pleased that so many breeds have introduced it because it IS important that people are getting what the papers say it is.

I don't talk much about this but when I was 15 years old (many dark moons ago, LOL) I bought a great Appy who I just won years and years on in competitive events. Could go from running barrels to a pleasure class to jumps in a nano second. I ended up winning scads on him in reining classes. Anyway, 7 years after owning him (and I had papers given to me by this "trader") I found an ad in Western Horseman magazine about a stolen horse with a picture. Guess who it was??? Yep...I had my heart and soul invested in a horse that was stolen from Texas, run through several markets, and because he was gelding, had papers put on him that weren't his (pre-photo days of registration). It was the most devasting event that ever happened to me.

Lets just say I have a real hangup about proper registration and making sure that the real deal is what you're getting. *SMILE*
 

Cjskip
Breeding Stock
Username: Cjskip

Post Number: 713
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 01:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW! That says it all, Bobbi.
 

Cjskip
Breeding Stock
Username: Cjskip

Post Number: 714
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 01:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mrs. Trotter, how are things going with this mess? Any resolution yet?
 

Mrs. trotter
Neonate
Username: Missourifoxtrotter

Post Number: 8
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Friday, September 05, 2008 - 08:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks so much for all your suggestions.

I'm just starting to recouperate from a bad case of the flu, so I'll try to get back on my band wagon this coming week.

It's been over a week since I emailed the gal at the association who's supposed to be in charge of this type of thing and she's neither called nor returned my email, so I may just go ahead and call the pres or vp of the association this coming week and see what they can offer for advice and direction.

thanks soooooooooo much and i'll try to keep you updated.
 

Beth
Yearling
Username: Beth13

Post Number: 86
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Saturday, September 13, 2008 - 06:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not exactly sure how this whole thing works, but since the stallion is already DNA tested, and you're going to get the mare and foal tested as well can't the registry just match them up with you not having to contact the stallions owner at all?
My personal advice... do everything you can to get out of paying him a single cent.
 

Cjskip
Breeding Stock
Username: Cjskip

Post Number: 744
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Monday, September 22, 2008 - 12:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How is this issue working out, Mrs. Trotter? Just curious. Interesting situation.



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