I have found that people are spending alot more then i thought for there little ones!!! Stud fees + vet bills and what breed- what kind of prices are you looking (hopeing) to sell for? correct me if i shouldnt have asked this but i kind of want to know to see if its really worth getting in to other breeds... thankyou
Well, I paid 1500$ for my pregnant registered QH mare. Lost the baby two weeks later, and the emergency vet bill to pull the attached placenta was about $100. Got to breed her again to the same poppa for free. But did a lot of prevention to save baby. Caslick, shots, ultrasound, more shots,etc. But he was born PERFECT! No thoughts of selling him. Had a dream that someone offered $5000 and I did not take it. Like they say in the commercial...."priceless". Oh and I forgot, barn with foaling stall 45,000$ All for baby.
Corina, You can buy a weanling for much less than you can breed and foal a mare. Breeding your own is a gift that you cannot put a price on. Raising a foal then training and getting it under saddle is a remarkable experience. Marilyn it is a sickness!!! We are pregnant today at day 23 with Skipper! 2 foals on the ground and one mare in foal for next year = SICKNESS
I have a vet in the immediate family, no vet bills for me
But for the mares, and stud fees, here are my expectations:
2007 grey filly by approved, imported, former International jumping stallion, Bas Blanc. Out of my Arab mare. Should mature to 16 hands. Super sweet, eligible for registration with ISR. I paid $600 for the mare (SUPER deal on her), and a $750 stud fee for Bas Blanc. For sale for: $3000
Arabian X Welsh cross. Will be registered Half Welsh, by my black stallion, out of my Arab mare. Should mature to around 13 hands. I only paid the collection fee of $150 for my stallion. Asking $3500 en-utero, $4500 after it's born.
Trakehner Cross X Welsh. Should be an AWESOME sportpony. Will be registered Half Welsh. Bred the mare myself, paid $450 worth of collection fee's for my stallion. Asking $3000 en-utero, $4000 after it's born.
Sired by former star of the Celle (Hanoverian State Stud, in Germany) Stallion Parade, Escudo II. Out of my TB mare. Will be registered Hanoverian, will be able to be a jumper, hunter, or Dressage horse. Stud fee is $1777 + 4 collection fees of $100 each. Mare was free, but due to old injurty requires a special shoe ever 6 weeks. Asking: $8000 en-utero, $10000 after it's born if its a colt, $12000 if it's a filly.
Sired by an imported Donnerhall son, Domiro. Foal will be registered Oldenburg, the mare has GREAT breeding! Foal will probably be a hunter, but could be a Dressage horse as well. Stud fee is $1100, mare was free, I keep front shoes on her though. Asking: $8000 en-utero, $10000 after it's born if its a colt, $12000 if its a filly.
(I am not planning on selling this one, but if I was...) Sired by outstanding, exrtremly popular stallion, Fabuleux. Out of my Oldenburg mare. The mare has previously produced foals with DEFINATE FEI potential (Yay!). Stud fee is $1800, mare was $1000 (I'm friends with her previous owner). I would ask $15000 for this foal. Both mare and stallion are SO proven.
QH X Welsh cross, mare was a gift to me, still paying collection fees, so we'll see. Anyways, $2500 en-utero, $3500 after.
(Message edited by dressage_diva333 on June 01, 2008)
live cover on first signs of heat took second month.
im in $53 for a vet visit to confirm preg. (and normal stuff we do every year, shots shoes blah blah) Good news is that she has saved me money this year. Normaly i would be out spending lots of money driving all over for barrel competitions. I plan to keep the baby for now if some one is interested ill sell depending on age and ability.
DONT EVERY ONE GET MAD CUZ SHES NOT PAPERED OR GOT GREAT BLOOD. She has a forever home that loves her!
the babys mom is mustang cross (not a BLM mare) we were told QH but shes got a walker type gait to her. With these mustangs you never know. but bug can move and man can she turn. She puts her heart in to it. if i could take her to some really comp. i think she would be whipping some high doller butt. I had some women come to me and tell me she should be a dressage horse . i dont know much about it but i can get her to do the lead change every step, kind of looks like shes skipping and she does this awsome trot that i dont remember what the lady called it but she said she trained her horse for years to do it. Bug does it all the time!! Bug is a horse you are drawen to. She has this look like the wild ones do. Pure freedom and honisty, You just stop and WOW at her.
you know if i were to look i dont think i could find a horse in the paper for more then $1000 right now, a well bred one for 1500. i just wish i had the money to pick a few up. More like i guess i wish we had room for a few more.
diana is there lots of vet bills during the pregs. on those minis?
(Message edited by newyearsbaby05 on June 02, 2008)
todd, we raised him from a yearling. He was imported from England when he was about nine months old. Thank you for the compliments. We are rather fond of him and are well pleased with his two foal crops so far.
Corina, I don't think most people would raise eyebrows so much for an unregistered mare being bred. Most of the discussion I've heard is about a lot of stallions out there, that should be geldings.
I think pedigree is best, but I am sincere when I say, if one has a mare that has the qualities they want, then why not? It's a free country last I heard! LOL! I hope your baby is exactly what you want!
Hi, Corina. The barn was the color, style , materials with least upkeep, easy to have built, etc. Had two older horses, planning on a baby-- so Had to have a foaling stall( excuse to have one) (Of course, Topi had her baby in the field- but loved the foaling stall any way to let them rest together safely. ) I probably could have gone much cheaper but I'm happy. Love to spend time out there-- it also has 3 stalls, hay room, tack room, space for gator, and a 12 x 36 porch. Pretty red with white raised roof and center aisle that horses can go in and out of as they please. My horses are all registered but nothing high dollar at all. Just a city girl's little girl's dream.
I got lucky, the Stallion owners are clients of mine and have a 16yr old daughter so we were able to trade training on some of the young horses and lessons for their daughter. With the vet bills for the culture, AI, conformation of pregnancy and well foal cheek it was about $375. I think that was a good deal for a colt that is showing his potential already.
I bought my 18 year old mare that was already in foal, from a University that had to sell some of the stock. Cost: $1800.00. A very good deal! Mama is pasture sound.
Vet bills related to pregnancy and birth: about $150.00.
The cost of equipment related to preg./birth: a little hard to say. I bought Seramune at $150.00. Then there was the betadine and all the other stuff one needs in a foaling kit. Maybe $40.00?
The biggest cost overall so far, is the feed! Boy does she pack it away! I can't believe she eats a bale of alfalfa every three to three and a half days! At $15.00 a bale, it is $150.00 a month and there is grain on top of that, of course, at $12.00 a bag. She goes through 50 lbs. in a about a week's time.
And this horse is an easy keeper! I can't imagine what some of the big thourghobreds are eating!
And of course the usual halters, as they grow and all that. With any luck and good planning, there won't be big vet bills, but who knows!
I could have bought a colt for a thousand, but not this quality. I am not in the horse circles (working on it). But I think he would be worth around $2500.00 now, with the right exposure. So if I broke even I'd be lucky!
Of course, next time round, I won't have to pay for the mare. But no telling what other costs may come up, that didn't with this one. Guess we just hope for the best!
i have seen a lot of stallions that shouldnt be. Maybe mine shouldnt be. I have to give him the benifit of the dought tell he fills out he had a very rough start and hes kind of small. I have a mare that is 2nd or 3rd cousins to him ( as close as you get with our the same sire and dam!) Anyways shes short but huge sold paint mare -we got her very cheap cuz no color but she would have been a world renier or something big if shed had color. So im hoping he gets her look. If he dont and doesnt have the babys i want he will make an awsome guilding. HIs half bro is up for stud in my area for $1250 so im hoping he is want i want in the end.
Teh biggest selling horses in my area are barrel horses and trail horses ive seen people pay thousands for an unreg. grade horse cuz they were sure footed. Mustang crosses are highly sot for trail horses around here --northern idaho-- the rockies--
Corina- Yep, they are much more saught after in WB breeding People like to snatch them up cheap as youngsters, send them through the Mare Performance Test, then breed them if they pass MPT Of course it is also nice to show them, then have the option of breeding later on.
With colts it is difficult because if you have an exceptional one, you have to make the decision of whether or not you want to sell them as a gelding, or colt. Thats not really an issue if they are sold under a year old, but after that you have yearling colts on your hands, I think that should be gelding unless they are truely something very special.
All the foals of course, have to have some sort of registration
Wow...some of the prices for these foals is somewhat shocking for me. I guess I just live in an area where people are literally "giving away" great quality horses. I was just having a conversation with a neighbor of mine who has a "Hollywood" stallion who was a cutting horse extraordinaire and he can't even get enough people to pay his $600 stud fee to justify the feed bill for standing him.
I try to stay out of the "stallion versus gelding" discussions as I have some strong feelings for that subject. But sometimes I just can't help myself. I have been a stallion owner at different times throughout my life, including now. I have also spent a great deal of time in the show circle when I was younger, as well as the racing industry and the performance horse circles so I don't consider myself a "dummy" to those arenas.
I think all of those things have educated me to a point where I simply say, "Different strokes for different folks."
Corina: "I've seen a lot of stallions that shouldn't be. Maybe mine shouldn't be." Who's to say that?! I'm sure there are lots of folks out there who could say the same for my stallion but its my choice and I happen to love what he produces. He himself was never a performer or show champion (never had the opportunity) but that's not to say that he can't produce quality foals in both categories. I can personally tell you that my foals look every bit as good as my friend's foals down the road out of his $10,000 stallion and putting them up against his performance foals would definately be equally as interesting. I think you need to give your boy a chance to prove himself.
Todd makes some really good points (I don't know what part of the country you're in Todd...but it sounds similar to my area). You can buy a weanling in my area for far cheaper than you can produce your own foals (including owning the stallion and forebearing that cost). It is for the love of it and the sickness of horse breeding that I continue to do this.
I don't stand my stallion outside of my circle of family and friends. I don't believe in mass producing in order to pay my feed bill. If I can't pay his way for him to give me my foals of choice, then he needs to be gelded and sent down the road. He is a super loud paint stallion and I have a variety of mares; one thoroughbred, one solid paint mare and a quarter horse mare. I purposely chose my mares based on the "variety" of horse styles producing the variety of foals. Hahahaha...my husband says that I "want it all." The confirmation horse, the performance horse and the racing horse. So far, he has produced one with color and one without (statistically he's on target). I like the fact that APHA has promoted their solid paint horses and now have events and challenges that are designed for these solid products. For sure, none of his produce will go to waste.
I grew up during the "Impressive" era where EVERYONE wanted to breed to this line. I'm old enough to see the effects of what it has done with regard to HYPP. People stood in line and paid top dollar to breed to this great stallion (and he was great)...if we had known about HYPP then, those same people would have been standing in line demanding that he be gelded. I call this "fad breeding"...its whatever is hot at the time.
My best friend raises racing Thoroughbreds. For several years, she only bred to "Storm Cat" lines because of his local popularity. Bless her heart, years later, she has yet to have one of these foals take her to the winner's circle. The foal that did take her to the winner's circle, once, is the mare that I now own. And she's not out of any direct great well known winner (you have to go back to grandpa and great grandpa). Hahaha. I guess my point is that out of nowhere can come some great quality horses. And, sometimes, even those "greats" don't produce anything that measures up to their own performance (ie: when was the last time that we heard "So & So won the Kentucky Derby, he is the son of the great Triple Crown So & So.")
Like foaling, breeding is a gamble. There is no guarantees and you never know what's gonna churn out of the ole mill. It is not my place to say who should and who shouldn't keep a stallion, no more than its my place to say to a mare owner whether they should breed and foal their mares or not. Imagine how crazy it would be if people were as judgemental about other's mares as easily as the stallion remarks roll off the tongues. If I remember correctly, hehehe, it does take two to make a foal.
Breed your choice mares to your choice in stallions because in the end, that's the only thing that matters. But, in the end, let's all be greatful that because of "different strokes for different folks" there ARE choices out there.
The floor is gone out of the horse market right now because of OVERSUPPLY. I don't care what the cause might be, 1) Halting of slaughter in the U.S.; (And yes, I find it interesting that in countries with legal slaughter, horse prices haven't taken the "hit" they have here in the States, but I'm not looking to get into that whole sticky debate) 2) The U.S. economy in general. With $4 and $5/gallon fuel and grocery prices (not to mention feed prices) skyrocketing, most people just don't have any "play" income.
There is a huge glut of horses on the supply side right now. No way around it. It is definitely a buyers market.
I have always contended two things: 1) There will always be a market for outstanding horses with super pedigrees. There is just an inelastic level at which certain people will always be "in the market". Call them rich or whatever, there will always be demand for really good horses in most every discipline from racing to western pleasure to 3-day eventing.
2) Most stallions should be geldings. I'm sorry, but that's my opinion. I think unless you have an absolutely outstanding specimen with great lineage that has something to offer the market above and beyond the competition, then the horse needs to be a gelding. Period. Kudos to the sporthorse people for a "qualifying" sort of thing regarding stallions. Here in the Quarter Horse world, there are lots of nice stallions that would make better geldings. And, geldings are often more marketable to the general market than stallions because of the whole management issue (i.e., special facilities, handling, etc.) you get into with stallions.
We need to breed for QUALITY. Period. Selective breeding for superior animals is the only answer for bringing the market up off the floor.
In the long run a $5,000 stud fee vs. a $500 one doesn't make a lot of difference. As my old dad used to say time and time again, "It costs just as much to feed a good one as a bad one". I'm still going to have the same investment in the mare, her care and the foal when it gets here no matter what my stud fee is. And my foal will be more marketable if I choose to sell it.
Registered horses are typically more "valuable". And I don't care registered with whatever. Sporthorse, Jockey Club, AQHA, Half-Arab or whatever. Papers are always an asset.
If this sounds cruel or nasty, then I'm sorry but I'm tired of seeing "good ole horses" being turned loose or given away or on the trucks bound for Mexico because of oversupply.
Diana: Am I just a tad bit passionate about this issue?!?! Just my thoughts...hahaha. I laugh all the time at people in general. I weigh all of 92 pounds soaking wet and I am always amazed at how people react verbally to me with the "Wow, you are SO skinny! Do you eat?! Are you bulimic or anorexic?" I often wonder how they would react if I just said, "Wow, you are SO fat! Do you eat all the time?!" I equate that with this same topic unfortunately.
Folks are quick to judge the stallion versus gelding issue. I just wonder how they would react if, all things being equal, folks walked around saying, "I wouldn't breed or own a mare unless she was of exceptional quality." For some strange reason, us mare owner's think that if we breed our beloved mares (who, in our eyes, are just wonderful) to some great and well-known stallion, that our babies are better. The fact of the matter is, it is all in the eyes of the beholder. The horse market is just as flooded with so-so mares (even bred to great stallions) who are churning out so-so foals in hopes of making a buck. So how is that any different than a stallion owner's choice to keep their boy(s) in tact for specific breeding purposes according to their own quality preferences? We should just celebrate the diversity among us.
My grandfather said it best, "A horse is only worth what you can get someone else to pay for it. And the world is full of fools."
Sorry...just had to add that bit of wisdom and humor! He was quite the philosopher and there's truth to be had in his witty remarks.
Bobbi, I wholeheartedly agree with your point of breeding exceptional mares as well. Breeding, performance, production, something has to set these mares apart as well or they need to be good, ole saddle horses. Most people I know with stallions standing in the several thousand dollar range won't breed just any ole mare either.
Quality, Quality, Quality. It's the only thing that is going to pick the market back up again.
hey guys its geting heated !!!! NOT TRYING TO MAKE IT WORSE IM IM NOT UPSET OR LETTING OFF STEAM!! I jsut want people to know there is more to the horse world
In my area Rusty has better breeding then 60% of the stallions around but he wasnt given the chance to prove himn self yet HES ONLY 3 !! HIS HALF BROTHER GOES FOR $1200. i havent got to ride him much becuase he had septisism at birth. lots of sergury touch and go from what im told. I would not even loung him tell about 3 months ago! i want him to be able to handle what i throw at him. Our first ride what bareback with halter and no lead! like i said i have a mare with same breeding and had she been colored she would have been up there with the world preformace horses. im not trying to fluff her up eather.
Totoally with you on breeding to pay the bills comment.That should never be aloud but I am having one baby and wont even sell it unless i get a really good offer. Yes Quality should be bred but who is to say what quality is. So the TB owners will olny breed TB cuz they are quality and so on and so forth. my mares are no $10,000 horses but they are exceptional compared to the market in my area, and the people that we ride with. What would the people like me that have enuff money to ride and have plesure horses do if we have to spend $10,000 on a horse. I have a 3 year old and $7 doller a hour job. i dont think the bank would finace me on a horse if i didnt have the money to feed it while i was buying it. There are alot of OK horses that have great homes.
People dont take in to consideration us lower end people. There is a lot more to a horse then world shows, racing and jumping, blah blah. Id love to see some of these "PROVEN" horses keep up to my grade mare on even an easy trail ride up here in the rockies
Dont get me wrong this lady that we got a mare from had 25 mares and one stallion all with foal. non had papers and non were even broke to ride, only half of them had names! THIS I DONT BELIEVE IN!!! But you sould take a deep breath and take a look! relize that not every "backyard breeder" is like this lady! there is a difference between her and what most of us are. I am breeding for something just becuase its not what you like or look for doesnt mean there isnt a market for it
THIS THREAD WAS TO FIND OUT WHAT PEOPLE WERE PAYING NOT THIS AND IM AFRAID JAN WILL SHUT IT DOWN SO LETS STOP thankyou all for you input. If anyone had more to add about what they are paying to get there baby here id love to hear it!
Catherine, I agree 100%! I wish more stallion owners bred to approved mares only as a stallion can only overcome so many faults of the mares. I haven't bred my stallion yet but when I do it will be to approved mares only. It will probably put some people off and will decrease the demand of my horse but I want QUALITY foals out there, not quantity. Unfortunately when you see a foal that's not so great people always jump to "the stallion didn't produce well" well what about the mare? You can take the most amamzing world caliber stallion and if you breed him to a nasty fugly mare you're probably not going to get another world caliber foal.
Corina, quality can be objective but it's pretty easy to tell if a horse has good conformation and is up to the breed standard. You don't want to be breeding a horse with crooked legs or a club foot (for example) and unfortunatly I see this happening all the time.
There is no reason to breed for mediocre horses and there will always be culls from a breeding program that can go to the lower end market. You are correct, not everyone wants a jumper or a dressage horse but why not have a straight legged beautiful trail horse?
Corina: The great thing about horse people is we come from all different social backgrounds, geographical regions and discipline areas, as well as, financial abilities. Thank goodness the world is full of different breeds for different tastes, as well as, other differences and choices for us all. Its what makes us become more rounded and enlightened as human beings (hopefully).
In the end, we all just wish each and every one of us safe and healthy breeding, as well as, safe and healthy foals...no matter the reasons or purpose behind our choices.
Corina dear, get ahold of yourself. Nobody is pointing a finger at you or saying you have to be "rich" to own a horse. I'll be the first to admit that there are lots and lots of good people out there that love their horses dearly and take better care of them than some multi-million dollar breeding farms. I'm not trying to insult anyone because they aren't a millionaire. I'm not a millionaire. I have two broodmares that are the best I can afford right now and I have bred them to the best stallion I can afford.
In regards to your original question about costs, my mares originally cost me in the upper four digit range, each, and the stallion I am breeding to stands for a $3,000 fee. Then you have mare care, vet bills while at the breeding farm.
Then you get the mares home (don't forget transportation costs to get them to/from the breeding farm), you have on-going feed, hoof trimming/shoeing, worming, vaccinations, vet care. Vet care when the foal is born. I would say be prepared to spend about $2,000 on vet care for the mare from the breeding process thru to the foal delivery and post-foaling care, i.e., levels checks, etc. Your vet is going to see a good chunk of change during the whole process.
My opinion, is there is no way I will probably "recoup" my costs in this down market but I think with the bloodlines and favorable conformation these foals will probably have a good shot at being "marketable" at several levels.
In my opinion, if one is going into the breeding business right now looking to make a profit, it probably isn't going to happen given market conditions right now.
My point is that there is a tremendous supply in the market of those good, ole horses that can't find a home. Due to the economy, in particular, more and more horses everyday are in that predicament. The numbers are growing!
The way to reduce this is to bred for quality, not quantity. Quality horses will always command a price, because there will always be a certain level of demand for quality horses no matter what the discipline.
True, there is always the case of the old gray mare that got mixed up with the ole yellow stallion and the resulting foal set the world on fire! This is the rare exception, not the rule, however.
There is also the possibility that two well-bred horses with extensive show and/or race records can produce a "mule" that ends up on a double-decker trailer for Mexico.
Its a roll of the dice every single time. Nobody ever has a "sure bet". But if you get bloodlines, etc. behind you, you stand a lot better shot.
Catherine, I am a breeder of quality horses, with great bloodlines, pedigrees, conformation, show records, etc... And I have to say, that if it wasn't for the "puppy mill" miniature breeders flooding the market with (to quote tracy) fugly horses, there would be no value to my quality horses. If everyone out there bred only for top quality, and every foal that hit the ground from this point on was highly bred to your quality specifications, there would be no market what so ever ....there'd be no reason to price any one horse higher than any other....if they were all to be bred the same. It's only because there are so many shit horses out there, that I have the ability to sell a quality horse for $6000.00. People get tired of shopping/wading thru bad horses, and often seem relieved to pay a higher price to FINALLY get quality. You see, it takes both types to keep the horse market in check. It is down because of rising prices on grain and fuel, blah blah...not because there's bad horses out there....there always has been, and there always will be....and your quality horses will always be worth more than the crap. That won't change. But you cannot determine what true beauty is....unless you've seen some "FUGLY" HORSES!!!!!LOL~!
If it weren't for people breeding crappy horses, I would also not have a market to sell to. I got all of my mares for $1000 or under. That doesn't mean they are crap, I am SHOCKED at the three mares I acquired recently, they are just wonderful. One carries some of the best international jumping bloodlines you can ask for, one has nearly flawless conformation, and one is a very proven producer, with movement to die for.
I have seen my share of "fugly" horses. For sure, people that just want a foal, so they breed even a mediocre mare to a decent stallion, I am a strong beleiver in the idea that foals take 60% from their dam, 40% from their sire. Or even people that have a horse with a uterus, breeding to their neighbors stallion with testicles. I strongly support the idea of WB breeding, in the fact that mares and stallions have to be approved to have registered foals. I only wish more breeds did this.
Even with WBs though, you have the crappy foals of of mediocre mares, with mediocre bloodlines, movement, and conformation, that suits the people who only want to spend like 2k on a horse. Where as the market I target is people with an eye for a real competition horse, who will pay upwards of $8000 for a nice foal.
When I took the plunge into breeding, and decided to buy the stallions, and the broodmares, it is something I have very much enjoyed. I cannot tell you how excited I am to see what my mares produce, with both my Welsh stallion, and the stallions (Escudo II, Fabuleux, and Domiro) I have been admiring for a long time.
IMO, ther are more mares being bred that shouldn't, then more stallions that shouldnt. Mares are a lot easier to deal with than stallions! I also think that a horse must earn the pivelege of being bred.
My personal opinion "God bless the grade horses", where would we be without them? I've always been a strong believer that the proof is in the performance and pretty is, as pretty does. That's the bottom line. I've always had both registered and grade horses and wether registered or not, it's who gets the job done that wins out. I've bought, owned and sold to many excellent grade horses to ever turn my nose up at one. Of course, on the breeding end, registered or not you should definitely be looking to breed quality individuals. And unfortunately,there are always going to be poor breeding decisions made by some on BOTH sides of that as well. I think the grade horse has a very strong place and a very certain niche to fill. For the everyday pleasure rider, all around family horse and non-breed show performer and much more. Especially today with so many breeders narrowing down the pedigree diversity by going to the same stallions and also gearing there breedings t'wards one specific discipline. The true all around horse has become harder to find among the well pedigreed registered horses nowadays and even when found, the average hard working person can't afford to spend 5 or 6 figures to purchase it. But, they can certainly find a grade horse that will work cattle in the evening, take Mom on a relaxing trailride on Saturday, heck even pull the trail wagon and then be trailered off on Sundays to be shared by half a dozen kids at 4-h or open shows and all without mortgaging the house to do so. I think to many people underestimate grade horses and their true value. They're certainly no threat to the value of any other horses pedigreed or not 'cause as stated "quality horses will always command a price" period. Overall, I agree that we need to breed for QUALITY individuals period, registered or not.
catherine i do take it personaly becuase im on the low end of the totem pole here. My stallion what given to me as a stragly yearling. Hes kind of skinny and a little short, doesnt have the big QH butt. he isnt showen or rode much, hes just a horse right now. Hes nothing great today, dont mean he wont be.I know what the blood line produces. Even if doesnt sound worth the food i give him now, he could never be replaced. He has more heart then any animal i have ever been with, calm kind natured and wanting to please. So Who in this world is to say that hes to be a stallion or a guilding. Just becuase hes not what you (i not meaning the personal you) is breeding for doesnt mean hes not what other people are breeding for. I want people to understand that there is another class of horse men and phyllis you have hit it.
before you just think that if blood lines and confirmation are all there is read this.
We have this guilding that is all out of proportioned, top heavy and kind of a jerk. HEs got a big head and short neck long chest but not wide, his hair sticks up and he wont grow a main, some one broke his ear along time ago cuz it jsut flops when hes tired, really short legs and big feet, he growled at the judge when my sister tried to show him! if you dont give him his treat he will push you out of his way and snot on you! if you came to buy him you would say eeewwww hes borderline FUGLY, but if you took him out of a trail well lets just say hes worth his weight in gold. He will take mountain goat trails and never bat an eye. Hes even been on his knees jsut to prove he can climb something he had no buisness even looking at. We bought him at acution as grade possible QH cross $300 in 2000 when you couldnt find a horse to buy. He runs barrels with my 3 year old, then takes my 13 year old sister around them then takes a lady we are teaching to do it around. he runs 5 events 3 times a day and never losses a step, he rides in the back of a friends truck and loves snickers candy bars. He will let him self out to get treats for the other horses. he belives in the no halter polisy! He loves to go to in the bar in town and will have your drink if your not watching. Hes took a handlycaped boy for his first ride, the boy doesnt talk and he tried to say thankyou. HE is not perfect on the out side but he is on the inside. If he could have babys you bet you ass hes have hundereds of little top heavy, bay babys running around!
I have a problem with the WB type breeding i like it and all its great incentive to breed for the best but what happens to the horses that jsut dont make it. You can have a horse bred up the rear and be perfect except maybe hes not had the proper training YET and it doesnt get registered. Even well breed horses can have problems. The paint horse is noterise for this coming to the colored horses. The same incentives need to be given to all horses thought out the breed or you will have breeders with a club waiting for the baby to come out!! OHH YOUR LEGS ARENT LONG ENUFF AT BIRTH "BANG" OHH YOUR LEGGS ARE A LITTLE CROOKED LETS NOT WAIT FOR THEM TO GROW OUT "BANG" this is happing to so many babys now without putting restriction out what the Ideal horses is. even well know breeders of "quality" horses do this!
I just want everyone to understand that QUALITY doesnt mean PEDIGREE. it means SOUND MIND AND BODY. Please dont just look on looks and blood alone you might find that your perfect horse is in a un-perfect skin
Ive said my peace. i asked for this not to happen. I hate when people judge.
(Message edited by newyearsbaby05 on June 04, 2008)
See, I disagree there a bit. I think horses have to have it all to get the priveldge of being bred. IMO, they have to have wonderful conformation, good movement, and a workable temperment, I prefer pedigree's and registration, but some people don't...
Anyways, even if the horse doesn't have a pedigree/registration, I think they should still exceptional animals in the way of conformation and movement, and like a said, not an impossible temperment. I know of a horse with just drop dead gorgeous movement, out of this world, but he was such a hot head, he got awful scores on his walk (which in most cases is a double coeficient). The horse managed to do well, just because everything else was exceptional, but can you imagine what kind of final scores he would get if he would actually walk? So, the temperment needs to be workable, but it is not my paramount concern. There are cetrain bloodlines that are known to be a bit hotter, just for example, the Weltmeyer line, gorgeous horses, but they are known to be a bit hot. Not entirely a bad thing for the FEI work though.
You ask what happens to the horses that don't get approved? Well they become somebody's lower level school horse, and are never bred. If they don't get approved, then they are not breeding quality. Thats all there is to it IMO. When the judges are judging the potential breeding animals, they look for the ability to perform. Yes, they do score temperment, and ridability as well. When I choose a stallion, I look at the scores, they will almost always tell you what you need to know about what they will produce. The one case I know of, where a horse did badly, then went on to become a legend, was Grannus. He hung his legs over small fences, they had to be 5ft+ for him to start thinking.
My point is that breeders have different goals obviously, and views on what quality is. Thats fine, it will always be like that. IMO, quality is conformation, movement, and bloodlines. BUT, I completly understand that a lot of people don't have the same view. I breed horses with the hopes that they will someday be a very successful competition horse, using popular stallions, and fantastic mares.
I am totally aware that there are many people who have the same views/goals as me, and there are many people who don't. I do beleive in fact, that there should always be a breeding goal in place. It must be thought of beforehand "Okay, what do I want to produce? Will this be a good combination?"
Wow this is a hot topic with so many different opinions. I Love It!! All my horses are registered with the exception of Swan. I tried to track down her papers or to even see if she was registered and found nothing. Her import papers from Canada only say TB. The lady who owns the stallion screens all horses before breeding to them. She suggested the breeding and when I mentioned the lack of papers she saw it as no concern. She knows that I will do the best for the foal and that I am not breeding just because I can. By campanying the foal I can help her to advertise for the Andalusian crosses. I think people and epically Stallion owners need to be a little more critical of their horses and who they breed to. I know my horse’s faults and will tell you any time. I still love them.
Corina, I didn't personally take anything Catherine said as a direct slam at you....I think you might be over analyzing things. This is just everyone's opinion, and they're like butts....everyone has one....and if it ain't yours, it probably stinks! LOL Everyone lighten up a bit....maybe it has become just a bit overheated....
Corina, I am on your side on a few issues. I know what it is like to own a great horse with no papers or bloodlines...sometimes it is just not that important! I have one old girl at my place who is good for nothing...she's lost 2 foals in a row, is too small to breed, has stifle problems, and isn't all that pretty, one foot turns in funky and I am suspect she's night blind....but it is for the fact that she is great with my 2 and 4 year old children that she has a forever home here. I can go to the barn, and she is in my pocket...she's a fugly, FUGLY horse, but people in therapy programs LOVE her...children at parties LOVE her...and I feed her and take care of her because she means so much to so many. Is she registered? NO...she's worthless...But (and here's where we've all been going here....)Even if she were breedable, and beautiful, and had a wonderful pedigree, I would not breed her! She has too many disorders that are considered genetic (stifle, ALD, night blindness, etc.) She has a history of foaling issues,I wouldn't want to sacrifice my reputation as a breeder to introduce those traits into one of my offspring! Somewhere in EVERY SINGLE horse club membership guide there is a line that states that their purpose is to "better the breed"...and the only way to do this is to not breed horses with known ailments or deformities. NOBODY here has said anything bad about grade/unpapered horses....and just like mutts, hell, some of my best dogs and horses came from rescues or the pound. It's just not a part of any breed standard to knowingly breed less than great. I believe that of the 'quality' breeders on this site will agree that you can't take a shit mare/stallion and mix it with a great stallion/mare and expect the outcome to be 'quality'...b/c you can bet that any off bite, any bad leg, no matter how minute it is in the sire or dam, will show up like a sore thumb in the offspring! That does not mean that your stallion should be a gelding!!!! Nobody said that...except maybe YOU, when you stated, "I have seen alot of stallions that shouldn't be. Heck maybe mine shouldn't be."
I don't know what happened...but it cut me off mid sentence, and I WILL FINISH! LOL... (Back on my box)...I believe ( and this is just me)...that if you go to the effort to join the club, pay the dues, advertise as a breeder thru that club, sell babies with registration papers from that club, that you should at LEAST do youR part to do what the club was formed for in the first place....which is to BETTER THE BREED! (hopping down now....bowing out gracefully....) Hope nobody was offended, if so, I apologize in advance.... No i don't, I mean what I said! LOL
AND...(yes, I'm back)...LOL IF by some off chance, I had a baby born from a 'quality' breeding that was for some reason less than perfect, (lets say an off bite), that baby would not be sold as a registered horse! That baby would be gelded asap, and sold as a grade/pet quality, so as not to carry on that particular defect in MY line...Just my little contribution to helping "better the breed" by not registering non quality offspring! That's just how I feel about it...others may have different opinions on the matter.
I am with you 100% Diana, I also have a couple Fugly horses, one we got from Animal Control, he is now 48 years old. UGLY as can be, legs turn out, ugly Roman nose, and hideous neck. Why do we keep him? Because just because he is ugly, doesn't mean that he should just be put down, we are giving him a place to live. Another gelding we have has navicular, and some kind of spinal injury, that makes him move in weird directions, you bet he is going to live out his days here. We used to have a BLM mare, super trail horse, you could put anybody on her. Evented for a while, and did some hunter/jumper work. Would she ever be bred? No. She has an ugly head, weak hind end, and ridiculously thick neck. The only reason we kept her around so long was because she was a good horse to put anybody on. She is now leased to a little girl who does lower level eventing with her.
Anyways, again, I couldn't have said it better Diana.
I must admit - I have loved this thread!! It has brought up a number of interesting issues/challenges. Let me preface this note - - - - WE ARE NOT BREEDERS!!! We have a great mare(QH)and bred to a wonderful stud, which produced a stud colt last year, unfortunately was tested as HPNN N/H - therefore we gelded him. (I am a proponent for quality and genetically sound horses). Since our mare is laid up this year due to an unforseen hoof issue (non-genetic) - we are re-breeding her back (50/50 chance she will produce HYPP n/n) - - if not we will not reproduce with the foal). Our Yearling did VERY }well at a show and we have been encouraged (tongue in-cheek by breeders) to raise another. Since we are not breeders -we have been slighted as "backyard" breeders. This is not the case as I and my husband understand the cost differential is definetaly for BUYING a young horse. (Still can't believe I talked him into this the first time We are Pro slaughter. Just as in humans - - there are some bad eggs - - - what do you do with them??? horse prison??? We lived less than 5 miles from Dekalb, IL and it was the cleanest (I did not even know it was a horse slaughter plant for 3 years) place I have drove by.
I agree - in the county we live - - unfortunately EVERYONE believes their horse (mare OR stallion) should reproduce. Let's be honest -- are there not humans that would benefit from NOT reproducing???
As an Industry - Breeders or recreactional for the expeirence - - Let's be responsible and do our part to minimize the need for "alternative" needs for ""disposal"".
Just my thoughts....... Love this site........
ps -- Stud fee (as the original thread was talking about.....$500) Deb
Just gonna give my fees....stud fee (introductory) $225.00, booking fee $200.00. Friesian Sporthorse (1/2 Friesian, 1/2 TB). Collection fee $300.00; mare care $140.00; Vet fees $800.00; Second Collection Fee $350.00; Pregnant....after second try.....thank goodness the stud fee was discounted for me LOL...but foal is almost here, so it doesn't matter what we paid. SIre's first and only foal sold for $6,000.00 before it was weaned...so if we cannot keep the baby, I'll have the stallion owner do an appraisal for me (she's certified I guess at this) and hopefully help me market the foal to sell it....but we are really hoping to keep it! Hope that helps KP
i NEVER said that i took it personaly!! i never ment to come off as personal about it. I just want people to know that there is a lot of breeding going on that might not be done based on what "they think QUALITY" is.
When I say "you" its not directed to anyone specific just to some else in general.
I just hate when others judge what is exceptable This has lead to so many un-nessicary deaths in the paint horse. I DO NOT BELIVE IN BREEDING DEFORMED OR GENETIC PROBLEMS. So if we are bettering the breed, whats the difference in breeding a horse with a crooked leg and breeding a horse with HYPP ( NO offence to anyone i love the look of the impressive horses), what about herda, CID in arabs. These is supose to be a heart defect in TB traced to a few stallions... dont really know. theses horses could have problems, both horses arent perfect but every day these horses are bred together.... if we are talking of cleaning up the breeding why is this kind of thing going on.......anyway
To keep the high doller horses as high doller that has to be a low doller, im not saying dog food but lower doller. If you want to get these horses that shouldnt be alive let alone reproduce out of backyard breeders hands they need someplace to take them... yes slaughter is exceptable but only HUMANE sluaghter. I love my horses and i know a lot of people do but at least being killed humanely and being used for something is better then starving to death or being used to death. Its cheaper to starve them then pay for it to be disposed of. i dont belive this but alot of people do.
The point was that no my mare has no pedigree ands shes a little shortbacked, kindof dingy at times but shes got the speed that im wanting and hes got the color and brains that i want. There is no guarentee that ill get what i want there never is even when both parents are perfect. the comment about maybe he shouldnt be ( a stallion) i hope that he produces great babys but my point is that whats great for you (whoever) and great for me is totally differnt so when you see a mare thats not jsut right for you or a stallion that doesnt premote exactly what you think he should maybe they are jsut perfect for someone. I NEVER SAID THAT IM FOR THE "BACKYARD" BREEDER... there is a difference between people who jsut breed any old horse just for money and those of us that breed what we can aford or what we want or just a few good horses that will have forever homes.
KIM your only up $1800 thats not bad for a foal thats worth $6000 are you keeping?
Corina, I'm not going to get into a debate but I did want to set the record straight. It's SCID that you are talking about with Arabs and no responsible breeder would breed a horse that has it. It's actually decreasing because so many people have been responsible about it.
HYPP is a huge debate but not all Impressive horses have it and you CAN get that "look" without HYPP it just takes more work. So again, good responible breeders will not breed a HYPP positive horse. I believe AQHA will no longer register a positive HYPP, they are also trying to stop this genetic defect.
You are correct that there are people out there that will continue breeding these type of horses but they are not quality responsible breeders IMO.
I'm very glad to hear the Arabian breeders are taking a responsible stand and trying to erradicate the disease. That's how it should be.
The problem is, as we very well know from past experiences that not all breeders are that responsible and many times the almighty dollar is the driving force in their decisions which often leads them to bad ones.
I'm thankful AQHA FINALLY took a stand on the HYPP issue. There were quite a few "so called" reputable breeders during the big Impressive trend actually buying and using mares they knew to be positive and even asymptomatic of the disease in attempts to have foals that actually had it, but not severely. Just enough to stand around in a stall and still look great like they worked everyday. The bottom line was this made them good money so why quit a good thing.
Of course, there will always be responsible and not so responsible breeders out there. Unfortunately, there's good and bad in everything.
But who's to say that the small, tight budgeted breeder can't make well educated decisions on a budget and for the right reasons and produce quality individuals that get good homes.
I think we'd all agree that the overall consensus is to breed with quality upmost in mind.
And my own opinion, quality isn't always equated with dollar signs or big names.
Well, on a different note...you all were so nice to me when a mare was given to me (FREE), with moon and night blindness (I think...based on observations), and gave birth 7 mos later. She is a great mom and perfect as my daughter's first horse. We don't know the daddy, but the baby sure has potential. Mom is a great driving horse and is our county's 4-H grand champion in walk-trot dressage test A. She plans to clean up on the WTC tests this year!
I found out she was in foal a month prior to his birth. He needed some plasma. He got it! We needed help in training. He got it! I feel that it is my responsibility to make him into a horse that will be successful.
I recently gave my third horse to a handicapped riding facility (Pray that he makes the cut!). I did this to make room for the next horse for my daughter (over 16 hands).
My daughter is 12 yrs old. Baby will be doing 4-H and equestrian team in the coming years. Since he will be Mom's size (14 3), he can use her cart.....and be trained in drivng. He will also be trained in hunt seat and western.
He still has problems with nursing. I have been getting flack. I am not a professional breeding facility. They are mentally weaned. I only have my front yard, back yard, two pastures, and a paddock. I rotate, pick weeds, pick poop, fertalize, water...
I just have to say that there are people out there that love their babies and will do anything to make them into the perfact horse for a girl one day. It is not the breeding for some people. It is the care and training.
He is hardship registered. He waits patiently while mom is off doing drill team work. He wants to nurse 10 seconds or less when she comes home.
OH and by the way, he will let my daughter sit on him, and will trot at halter with her on his back as a 17 mo old. Done once (don't worry, will not do again)... she even did a cowboy dismount!
Jane, what a great video....I am in love! You're very fortunate to have him (and mommy, of course)
Please note that opinions, product information, advice or suggestions posted on this bulletin board are not necessarily those of the management at Equine-Reproduction.com nor does the maintenance of the post position indicate an implicit or any endorsement of that information, opinion or product.
Further, although we have the greatest respect for the posters offering assistance here, you are advised to seek a consultation with your veterinarian prior to using information obtained from this board if it is of a veterinary nature.Proud to be sponsored and supported by: