MAIN PAGE
EQUINE REPRODUCTION ARTICLES
SHORT COURSES
OTHER SERVICES AVAILABLE FROM EQUINE-REPRODUCTION.COM
FROZEN SEMEN STALLIONS
CERTIFIED SEMEN FREEZING LOCATIONS
EQUINE REPRODUCTION SUPPLIES
EQUINE REPRODUCTION BOOKS
EQUINE REPRODUCTION LINKS
EQUINE REPRODUCTION E-MAIL LIST
EASILY CALCULATE THE CORRECT VOLUME OF SEMEN AND EXTENDER TO SHIP OR USE ON FARM!
EQUINE REPRODUCTION BULLETIN BOARD
SITE MAP OF EQUINE-REPRODUCTION.COM
CONTACT US

horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
Go to the articles page
 
Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board
 
Topics Page Topics Page Register for a new account Register Edit Profile Profile Log Out Log Out Help/Instructions Help    
New Posts New Posts Last 1|3|7 Days Search Search Tree View Tree View  
Posting is restricted to registered board members only to prevent spamming of the board. We regret the necessity of this action, but hope you will appreciate the importance of the integrity of the board. Registration is free and information provided during the process will not be submitted to third parties.

How much is to much when "line breeding"?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Miscellaneous and Suggestions for a New Topic Category » How much is to much when "line breeding"? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Kris Moos
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kris

Post Number: 1172
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 02:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a mare that in her papers, 4 generation pedigree goes back to Watch Tyree 2 times, and in her 8 generation she goes back to Two eyed Jack 5 times, I want to breed her to another Qh who also has alot of Two Eyed Jack and Watch Tyree in him but his is closer up (on his papers, 4 generation Pedigree, he has Two eyed Jack twice and Watch Tyree)... I am wondering if I will be causing in-breeding and not line breeding with that much of the same lines....
Is there anything I should be aware of by doing this? The stallion owner bred a mare out of this stallion to his other stallion who is 50% Two eyed Jack and the resulting foal born was "perfect", appeared healthy was very intelligent, but they lost it at 6 months of age, cause of death was something related to the amount of Two Eye Jack in her....

I am wondering if anyone knows how much is too much???

any input greatly appreciated since I plan to breed her in 6 weeks!!!!
Thank You!
 

Beth
Weanling
Username: Beth13

Post Number: 50
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 04:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Kris. I don't breed a lot of foals, and I don't breed for pedigrees, largely because of the fact that my stock at the moment have no papers, but I personally would not breed to this stallion because of the inbreeding. In fact I probably wouldn't even have bought this mare in the first place. I'm not meaning to insult QH breeders here, but the breed itself has a lot of problems, largely because of, or made worse because of inbreeding. I would look for a nice well bred stallion completely unrelated to her. Much safer for her, the foal, and the breed.
Beth
 

Kris Moos
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kris

Post Number: 1173
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 06:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Beth for your input...I am still unsure of what I want to do, The stallion I was thinking of I did not choose solely on his bloodline, I actually chose him because of his build, and personality and what he gives his foals and how smart they are... I didnt even know his lines till after I fell in love with him! I was looking yesterday at the two's papers and realized they share alot of the same horses and it made me a bit worried...
If I can find a suitable stallion that offers the same I may consider NOT breeding to him, but it would be nice to hear from others who do breed registered stock as well...
thank you again Beth.
 

Catherine Owen
Yearling
Username: Cateowen

Post Number: 88
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 09:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kris,
Linebreeding is a term that is used to cover "milder" forms of inbreeding. Inbreeding is typically considered in "incest" terms, i.e., father to daughter, son to mother, etc.

It gets fuzzier when the lineage gets further out, i.e., a great aunt to a second nephew sort of situation, that is typically what is referred to as linebreeding.

Dog breeders have been dealing with this for decades as sometimes the gene pool for some breeds is VERY limited especially when they are imported to The States.

I have Quarter Horses and am breeding for Western Pleasure horses. Of course the influence of Zippo Pine Bar is dramatic and his lineage is included in virtually all modern Western Pleasure stallions today. I have two Don't Skip Zip mares (one which is also a grandaughter of Zippo Pine Bar on her bottom side, so she is essentially "double-bred" Zippo and I have had this thought regarding "getting too close in lineage" cross my mind this year when selecting a stallion for my mares. While I absolutely desire the "Zippo" characteristics, I definitely don't want to get into a situation where I am getting birth defects---sometimes when you breed really close you either get a scorpion (absolutely SUPER horse with virtually ALL the Good stuff) or you get a poor little thing with virtually all the bad stuff or maybe even worse. I guess I have an image of something two-headed or whatever floating about my mind.

Basically what I have come up with is that Zippo Pine Bar blood is desirable and virtually hard to get away from in the AQHA pleasure horse industry so I have looked for a stallion with that breeding on just one side and then a strong dam and/or sire of totally different lineage. Sort of get some "fresh" blood in there.
I have selected Huntin For Chocolate for my Don't Skip Zip mares. He is by Zips Chocolate Chip x Zippo Pine bar but out of a half thoroughbred mare that is crossed out to some really super old King Ranch cowhorses. Huntin For Chocolate has a totally different look to him than the typical Zippo (different croup set, really more of a hunter type of topline).

I think it all boils down to linebreeding is okay, but keep it at least a couple of generations back---look for some other line on either the top of bottom side that will compliment the desirable traits for the horse you are linebreeding but is "fresh" blood, so to speak. Also look at the individual very closely, is the stallion "typical" of that breeding or does he have some desirable characteristics that are different and sort of a 'breath of fresh air"?

Halter horses have similar dilemmas with the whole Impressive line, he is absolutely hard to get away from in halter horse breeding and then of course there is the whole HYPP issue related to his lineage.

I have NEVER heard of a syndrome tied to Two Eyed Jacks that was considered deadly? (Other than some people don't think they have the greatest dispositions, but that is purely opinion and based a lot on how the foal is handled, trained, etc. Vickie Lee Pine was an awsome mare and was a daughter of Two-Eyed Jack). I know there is a lot of Two Eyed Jack out in the Paint horse world and they also deal with the lethal white syndrome, but I don't think it is specifically tied to Two Eyed Jacks.

Are you sure there wasn't a HYPP issue with the foal that died? A lot of Two Eyed Jack can be found in halter horse pedigrees and Two Eyed Jack mares were a favorite to cross with Impressive. That would be my first thought.

There are books out there, particuarly related to dog-breeding, whereby you can calculate a "coefficient". Most elementary genetics books have instructions for calculating the inbreeding coefficient from a pedigree.

Hope this is of some helps.

I think if you stay at least a couple of generations back and have some good "other" blood infused in throughout the pedigree it will be okay. I don't think you really want to breed say a daughter of Zippo Pine Bar to a son of Zippo Pine Bar, etc. Although I know some people who have tried and have had mixed results.

There is the All Breed pedigree site out there that a lot horses are listed on and you can use it to do some bloodlines research. Here is the link:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/

Thoroughbreds have a similar site:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/

What type of horses are you breeding for? Cowhorses, reiners, cutters, halter?
 

Kris Moos
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kris

Post Number: 1174
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 11:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

no HYPP was not an issue with the foal, the parents are 100% FQHR registered... but on the foals papers in the 4 generations it would have had Two eyed Jack at least once if not twice in every name.... so in a sense it would have been over 75% Two eyed Jack blood....
anyway the reason behind this stud is
I have like the Two eyed Jacks... they seem to be quick learners and willing to work with a calm attitude, from my experience....but again that is an opinion,
like you said it is hard to get away from the Impressive bred horses in the halter world... and my opinion of them (based on 5 horses I have owned or currently own) is they tend to be semi unpredictable(not the same day after day, one day calm the next "naughty") and overly alert(lookng all over for everything and playing and putzing with things)... with a little attitude thrown in... they are beautiful and nicely built ..... but I have also found that their feet are EXTREMELY small!!!! (The mare I am refering to and would like to breed has Impressive in her as well....)He has the old George lines in him and she has Impressive nad wimpy in her... so there is also some good blood...besides the tyree and tw eyed jack... but how well will it all mix??? i guess there is no way to tell.. but she also crosses back to Three Bars 8 times in her 8 generation pedigree... obviosuly somebody who bred this mare was looking for something paricular... but I bought her because of her personality and her look....
ssooooo,,,,, what am I breeding for,,,,
I am trying to keep a more foundation build but to breed down the muscle of my mare some http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/krismoos/100_2519.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/krismoos/100_2523.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/krismoos/100_2536.jpg
she is so stout and heavuly muscled over the shoulder and the stallion is not as muscled... and try to put a hoof back on her (she is 15.1 hans, 1200 pounds with an 00 (double ott) shoe)
I am looking for an all around horse to do whatever with... preferably cattle type (penning, and if i learn to rope a rope horse) but one to use for trails and maybe a play date at a local game show for fun... a general all around good minded horse with no spook....that is the goal... (and with him palomino and her red dun... ideally out of the mix id like a palomino or a dunolino... but anything will be fine!!!! the color is just a bonus!)

here is a pic of him, (not real good it is a pic of his flyer)http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/krismoos/100_4935.jpg
The quality of stud is what I am looking at... my mare is what she is... http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/krismoos/100_4936.jpg and locally there is not alot of GOOD minded studs.... with foundation lines... many hove alot of TB in them.... I have bred to another and have two here out of him, but he has zan parr bar/sun a couple times close up and so does my mare, so it would be the same issue just different bloodlines, and I have found that the Two eyed Jack seem to be more even tempered than the Zan Parr as well... that is the thought... but I do not want to deal with health issues and deformities either.....

Thank You soo much Catherine... I will take all you said into consideration... I will also speak to my vet and the breeder and see what they think too...
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 1053
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 12:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Linebreeding is also very common with Arabians and I have done it myself. If done correctly you can get some wonderful horses but like Catherine stated you don't want to inbreed, completely different than linebreeding. For example: my stallion is out of a mare who's grandfather is Bay El Bey, his sire's grandfather is also Bay El Bey so my stallion's ggrandfather is Bay El Bey on both sides. I'm going to be breeding him to a mare this spring who's ggrandfather is Bay El Bey. So I'm linebreeding but it's not close up. Some people say that anything past the 4th generation is a moot point and doesn't make a difference anyway while others don't agree. I honestly wouldn't worry that your mare had Two Eyed Jack 5 times 8 generations back. :-)
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 1329
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 01:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well Kris I know nothing about breeding Quarter Horses but your mare is really really nicely built. That isn't Jericho's mom is it?
 

Kris Moos
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kris

Post Number: 1175
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 03:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Tracy for the example, I just wonder because there is sooo much of it.... arabs ... i love them.... have 1 1/2 myself:-) and Jan O thank you for the compliments.... no that isnt Jerichos mom, that is Tsaharah she is an arab bred to the zan parr stallion I made reference to, This is Lily... my "tank" :-)
 

dreamonthefly
Weanling
Username: Dreamonthefly

Post Number: 26
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2008 - 10:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i breed tb racehorses. check any pedigree theory book or book of "notables" and you will find their inbreeding/linebreeding status. there are STRONG cases and good examples of deep linebreeding (multiple, multiple times) in the TB greats and there are stellar examples of outcrossing. i place emphasis on putting the right bloodlines in the right place in the pedigree of my hypothetical foal. There are as many pedigree theories as there are breeders and the spectrum is broad. Do research...prolific lines where you need them but never forget about the individual. there are as many poor sons of great sires as there are great ones.
 

Phyllis Schroder
Weanling
Username: Shadowbend

Post Number: 43
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 02:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kris,
I to am quite fond of the Two Eyed Jack line and find it very workable and even tempered.
There is alot to be said for linebreeding and the great attributes it has passed down along with some of the poorer examples and problems that have also come with it.
I had a Weiscamp Skipper W mare that was linebred through and through and stamped every foal with the greatest necks and heads no matter the sires attributes. I am still a big supporter of adding Skipper W stock to help refine rougher looking stock and keep the working ethic and great temperment.
Each line has it's particular attributes that the individual who is linebreeding is trying to strengthen and make dominant to pass on consistantly through generations.
I would start by asking myself what it is I want to improve upon in this mares foal (such as the larger feet). Choose a line that consistantly passes that trait along with others you may be looking for such as a lighter build ect. and work from there.
Looking at the pics it looks as though you mare leans much more t'wards the halter lines in her pedigree.
To improve hoof and leg bone size I would suggest looking hardest at the ranch and roping lines. The Drifwood lines would be a good possibility, especially the Driftwood Ike lines.
Crimson Page is also a nice working line but harder to find.
I don't think i'd worry much about crossing her to another Two Eyed Jack bred horse either. She seems to have a pretty even mix of working and halter lines and is not very strongly line bred Two Eyed Jack. 5 times in 8 generations isn't much when you consider that's only 5 out of 114 total in an 8 generation pedigree.
Possibly even consider a working Qh line with a touch more Tb to lighten her up as you like.
Hope you find Mr Right
 

Catherine Owen
Yearling
Username: Cateowen

Post Number: 97
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2008 - 02:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kris,
I really like your mare. I agree with Phyllis. You may want to look at some ranch stock or even a TB if you are looking to "lighten" her up some and get a larger foot under the foal. Although be careful about TB as they have also been breeding those horses down to little feet and a lot lighter bone. All anyone cares about in the modern TB racing world is speed and pretty. Breeding for that whole "pretty" thing has taken some of the bone and foot away from the modern TB. That is why I find Curlin such a refreshing breathe of fresh air, he is indeed bigger boned and stouter than a lot of TB's of recent history (although he still isn't as big as his QH pony horse-Pancho who I believe is about 16.2 and 1400 pounds).

Awww... but I digress and this topic could be a whole other thread.

I don't think your mare is "too close" up to the stallion you have selected as far as the Two Eyed Jack or Tyree breeding is concerned. This stallion also looks like a good working type horse with some solid bone and nice conformation. The foal will have some muscle to him though, probably a lot of it. But then foundation quarter horses did/do.

Hmmm... lets see, your mare is a line-back dun and he is a Palomino. I'll take odds that the foal would be some sort of "yellow".
 

Beth
Yearling
Username: Beth13

Post Number: 52
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 11:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kris
Your mare is gorgoeus. If your trying to breed doen the muscle tone, I would suggest using an Arabian sire. They're light, many Arabians do well in Western events, and since your mare is so muscular, the foal will have good muscles too so should be strong enough to do the type you want to. And Quarabs are simply gorgoeus- they're probably my fave type of horse.
 

Kris Moos
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kris

Post Number: 1177
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 12:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Beth, thank you for the compliment... I am actually considering that, I am looking around for a nearby arabian stud that is not grey!
I have a quarab... little Jericho, he is a buckskin... also my favorite!!! :-) I am unsure yet what I am doing, i just really want a foal from this mare as a future horse to replace my mare that is gettng up in her years and can no longer be ridden....
Thank you for the suggestion...
ALSO,
I talked with the breeder and he doesnt think it is too much, he said the closest smiliar horse is 3 generations on each of them... so he said in reality he feels that it will bring out the best and not the worst because that should be weeded out by the time it gets to the foal.. who would be the 4th generation of lines..
so like I said I am unsure.... I will update when I decide and what I decide on :-)
THANKS ALL!



Please note that opinions, product information, advice or suggestions posted on this bulletin board are not necessarily those of the management at Equine-Reproduction.com nor does the maintenance of the post position indicate an implicit or any endorsement of that information, opinion or product.

Further, although we have the greatest respect for the posters offering assistance here, you are advised to seek a consultation with your veterinarian prior to using information obtained from this board if it is of a veterinary nature.

Proud to be sponsored and supported by:
IMV Technologies - makers of Equine AI Equipment
Equine A.I. Equipment Supplies
Universal Medical Systems Ultrasounds
For your Veterinary Ultrasounding Needs
Hamilton Research Inc - Home of the Equitainer
Hamilton Research Inc - Home of the Equitainer
Exodus Breeders Supply - Your one-stop shop for all your reproductive needs!
Exodus Breeders Supply
Har-Vet: An Industry Leader in Equine Veterinary Products
An Industry Leader in Equine Veterinary Products!
Reproduction Resources: Specializing in Artificial Breeding and Embryo Transfer Supplies
Specializing in Artificial Breeding and ET Supplies
BET Pharm: Your Compounding Pharmacy for Reproductive Needs!
Your Compounding Pharmacy for Reproductive Needs!
www.SemenTanks.com - Quality Tanks at Competitive Prices!
Quality Tanks at Competitive Prices!
J.L. Smith Co. - Safe, affordable breeding stocks!
Safe, affordable breeding stocks!
  International Veterinary Information Service
International Veterinary Information Service
 

MAIN PAGE | INFORMATIONAL ARTICLES | SHORTCOURSES | SERVICES
FROZEN STALLIONS | FREEZING LOCATIONS | SUPPLIES | BOOKS | LINKS
EQUINE REPRODUCTION E-MAIL LIST | SEMEN CALCULATOR | BULLETIN BOARD
SITEMAP | CONTACT US