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P&E and lutalyse questions

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Hormonal Manipulation » P&E and lutalyse questions « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Kjersti Tackett
Nursing Foal
Username: Freetodreamarabians

Post Number: 14
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 11:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi all I've got a few questions real quick. I just picked up our P&E, lutalyse, HCG, and Oxytocin from the vet tonight but he didn't give me directions on how to store all of these; none need to go in the fridge right? (the hcg is still in the 10,000iu powder form not reconstituted yet)

He also didn't tell me the volume I was supposed to inject of the P&E it says on the bottle label that it's 150mg/ml progesterone and 10mg/ml of estradiol it's compounded by Wickliffe pharmacy. So that means I would give 1cc per day right? I had to start it tonight to stay on schedule with the stallion farm and thats what I did I really hope it was correct.

Then on the Lutalyse his secretary drew up two doses for me since I told him I wanted the 1/10th microdoses but these are 2.5ccs each. wouldn't that be the normal volume for the full doses not micro doses?

And finally we are planning to do the oxytocin protocol post breeding as this mare is a 14yr old maiden but again the secretary drew up a big syringe and said 5ml=100iu so in layman's terms how much on a syringe am I going to draw up. Isn't the dosage for oxy post ovulation usually 30iu IM every four hours so that would mean 1.5ml correct?

Thanks for all the feedback I do have a call into the vet but it sometimes takes a few days for him to get back to me and his assistants aren't the most knowledgeable about this stuff. Thanks alot for your help.
Kjersti
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1865
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 09:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is preferable to store the hCG and the Oxytocin in the 'fridge. The rest should be stored at room temperature.

The daily dose of P&E is 150/10 so if you have a formulation that is compounded at that concentration per ml, then 1 ml is the daily dose. The P&E I have used however has been most commonly compounded at 50/3.3 per ml, so 3-ml is the daily dose. I would check with Wickliffe.

The dosage you have been given for the Lutalyse is a full dose (and the high end of the full dose at that!).

There is an article that explains the oxytocin protocol in detail on this site - follow that link. 30 iu per treatment is too much.

Note that you can use 1-ml insulin syringes (with a very small needle) for the Lutalyse and the oxytocin, which should make your mare happier.
 

Kjersti Tackett
Nursing Foal
Username: Freetodreamarabians

Post Number: 15
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 10:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Jos! I spoke to Wickliffe and indeed they compound it like that. Is that weird? It's still going to work the same right? what difference would it make other than the bottle I bought is apparently enough to do 10 mares. It makes more sense now that as I was leaving the vet said if I brought back the bottle he'd reimburse whatever I didn't use.

So for the Lutalyse I'd just divide what I have by 10 and do 1/10 of that or is there an even lower amount I could do seeing as how they gave me the high end dosage. Good thing I wondered they told me to give that monster dose two days in a row! Probably a misunderstanding between vet and secretary but still it's a good thing I asked!

I did read the oxytocin article and the reason that I thought it was 30iu IM is it references something to the effect that after ovulation oxytocin is less effective so 30iu IM MAY be more appropriate. What do you guys have success with? Just the 20iu IM?

And one more question; I know that on the evening of the 18th day I'm to give HCG and then breed the next morning according to protocol. However knowing how ups/fedex works here (I'm 60+ miles from the closest hub) It would probably be 5pm or so before I get my stuff and get her bred. Would I still be okay administering HCG almost 24hrs before or would it be better to wait until the morning of day 19 or even until I have the semen in hand for HCG. I don't want to miss her on the off chance she goes faster than normal. The stallion has excellent motility and is still at 50% progressive at 72hrs and they have confirmed pregnancies from 6 day old semen even if that makes any difference. Thanks alot I really appreciate the help and recommendations!
Kjersti
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1869
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2008 - 11:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wickliffe and indeed they compound it like that. Is that weird? It's still going to work the same right?

As long as the compounded product is P4 Progesterone and Estradiol 17β you'll be fine. Note that some pharmacy's use different estrogens (estradiols cypionate or benzoate being the most common), and they will not work well for you.

Lutalyse I'd just divide what I have by 10 and do 1/10 of that or is there an even lower amount I could do

0.1 or 0.2 ml would be adequate.

Oxytoxin... What do you guys have success with? Just the 20iu IM?

We use 10 iu pre-ovulation and 20 iu post-ovulation.

However knowing how ups/fedex works here (I'm 60+ miles from the closest hub) It would probably be 5pm or so before I get my stuff and get her bred. Would I still be okay administering HCG almost 24hrs before or would it be better to wait until the morning of day 19 or even until I have the semen in hand for HCG.

Ah yes, the perennial question. And I'm not going to answer it - I'm going to leave it up to you, and you'll see why! :-)

My wife and I go round on this one all the time. If you give the hCG and the semen gets lost or delayed, then you could be in trouble. But if you don't give it, then the mare may hang on too long for the viability of sperm...

I like to give it on time and hope for the best. My wife prefers to wait until the semen is in her possession....

80% of mares will ovulate in 36-42 hours after receiving hCG on a 35 mm follicle. If the follicle is larger at the time of treatment, then they may go sooner.

The stallion you're dealing with you say has good duration of viability of semen, so if the mare holds on, you could be good to go.

But it's your call... :-) !!!
 

Kjersti Tackett
Nursing Foal
Username: Freetodreamarabians

Post Number: 16
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 10:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh boy I hope it's the right ones! Will it say on the bottle label? This just says Progesterone/Estradiol 150mg/ml-10mg/ml; nothing about which kind they are. I would think that my vet would have ordered the right stuff since he uses this protocol quite a bit and he actually learned about it from you guys in one of the short courses you did a few years ago there. How would I go about making sure it's the right stuff or should I worry about it since I've already started it...
Thanks again!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1871
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 10:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Call Wickliffe or your vet and ask. If it does require more than 1-ml/day, it won't work reliably.

The fact that the bottle apparently has enough for 10 mares would make me nervous - it is not uncommon for it to be packaged in 3-mare vials (by other compounding pharmacies).

Call....
 

Kjersti Tackett
Nursing Foal
Username: Freetodreamarabians

Post Number: 17
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 10:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

YAY! I called them this morning and indeed it's estradiol 17b and p4 progesterone so it's the right stuff. They said they just compound it stronger so it only requires 1ml/day. so yeah this 100ml bottle would do 10 mares. This bottle of 100ml is about 200bucks so thats a bit cheaper per mare I think than like the bet pharm 3/ml/day one; maybe thats why the vet ordered it from there... don't know. Anyway, so I think I can relax now that I have the right stuff (good thing since today's day 4) now if ups/fedex can do their job right in a couple weeks we'll be set.

one more quick ? - what is the dose of HCG you guys use? Do you tailor it to the size of mare? I read that the normal dosage is 1500-3000iu. One mare is a 16.3h 1300lb TB mare and the other is a 15.1h 900lb arabian mare. same dosage for both? The vet assistant said use 3000 but the maximum dose isn't always the best... What do you guys have luck with?
Thanks agian!!!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1876
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 10:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We routinely use 2,500 iu on an "average" (900-1500 lb) mare. Overdosing with hCG can actually suppress ovulation in some cases, although that typically requires >5,000 iu.
 

Karen Maas
Neonate
Username: Kmaas

Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2009
Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 09:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am new to the Bulletin Board. I recently had a nursing mare with a 30 day old filly to breed who wouldn't cycle in the presence of my stallion. Her owner wanted to use hormonal injections to bring her into season, but my vet was concerned about hormonal manipulation in a nursing mare. Can anyone share information with me concerning using hormonal manipulation with a nursing mare?
Thank you!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2551
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, July 18, 2009 - 11:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The hormones most commonly used to induce estrus in the mare - Prostaglandin F, or progesterone and estrogen (P&E) are all hormones that occur naturally in the mare at some point of her cycle, so their use does not present any problem other than any common risk of injection in any mare. Your vet can confirm that by contacting another veterinarian that specializes in equine reproduction, as it appears that they don't.
 

Chris Taylor
Weanling
Username: Galaxy

Post Number: 22
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 02:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos..I can't get hold of my vet. One of my mares was accidentally served this afternoon, intromission was achieved. I have some Lutelyse here, what's the recommended protocol to ensure a pregnancy does not occur. Mare is 500kg. We are in the southern hemisphere and 1 month away from the official start of spring. Thanks, Chris
 

Chris Taylor
Weanling
Username: Galaxy

Post Number: 23
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Saturday, August 01, 2009 - 02:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just found the answer in STUD COLT BRED HIS DAM thread. Administer 6 - 8 days post ovulation. Just need to know dose rate & frequency. A mare that size normally receives 1ml if we are short cycling her.



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