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Lutalyse question, need info PLEASE!!

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Hormonal Manipulation » Lutalyse question, need info PLEASE!! « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Lisa M
Neonate
Username: Lisamm

Post Number: 2
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 12:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So I have been reading EVERYTHING on the internet about Lutalyse and mares because I am freaked out!! Okay my mare foaled March 27th and wanted to wait till her 30 day heat to breed her again, well she must have ovulated early and we missed her. Had her at the vet and he said she had a nice big CL and we should short cycle her. So we gave her the shot May 1st in the evening around 7pm-ish, she sweated and got all wobbly on her feet so pretty sure it worked... everywhere I read said they would come back into heat 3-5days after giving the shot, well she came back into heat Sunday night May 6th (Five days after giving the shot), called my vet and he said to bring her down on her 3rd day of heat(7 days after giving her Lutalyse) which is tomorrow 5/8. I am just really worried that we may miss her as it says they ovulate 8-12 days after getting the shot, and tomorrow will be 8 days after giving her the shot. We have never done this before and are just a little worried, does any of this sound normal?! Any info would be great and any experiences you can share would be awesome!!! Thanks!
 

cathy Cook
Breeding Stock
Username: Razmacat

Post Number: 221
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 07:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rule of thumb I usually book mares to be bred from 5 to 7 days post giving a shot of prostin. I think at 8 days you are going to see a nice big cl. Remember mares on prostin move faster through their heat cycle than a mare not on prostin, so you are sort of in turbo. I gave prostin to a mare Sunday and am hoping to breed her Wednesday.
 

Lisa M
Neonate
Username: Lisamm

Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 09:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess we will find out today at 4pm, anyone else have any experiences?!
 

Colleen Beck
Breeding Stock
Username: Gypsycreations

Post Number: 258
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 11:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With our draft mares, the prostin usually took about twice as long as in light horses. Used to really freak the vets out. We'd tell them every time and they wouldn't believe us.
 

Lisa M
Neonate
Username: Lisamm

Post Number: 5
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - 09:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Okay had her ultrasounded she has a 35mm follice tonight, we order semen tomorrow and breed her on Thursday morning, I am keeping my fingers crossed!!! Wish me luck!
 

Jan Owen
Breeding Stock
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 293
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 12:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lisa,

I have always short cycled my mare for breeding. She is sort of a silent heat type of gal and with the stallions I have bred to you sort of had to plan based on their show schedules so it just seemed to be the best solution. I know it is really hard to see your mare sweating and shaking, not pretty. But I have had three successful pregnancies via this method. Much more control. My vet AI's and then gave another shot (not sure of the name but it helps make sure that they ovulate). So I will keep my fingers crossed for you too! Hoping the "soldiers" do their job!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1295
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 07:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It looks like you've got your answer, but read the article on this web site about prostaglandin use in the mare (follow that link) for more information about prostaglandin use.

FYI - the sweating following treatment does not indicate that it "worked" - merely that the mare had to undergo a very unpleasant and unnecessary experience. Prostaglandin causes constriction of the smooth muscle at high doses, hence the sweating. If you give a gelding prostaglandin at the same dosage, he'll sweat, but he won't come into estrus!!! Using 1/10th of the standard dose two days in a row in your mare will result in the onset of estrus in same manner as a full dose, but with no unpleasant side-effects.
 

Lisa M
Neonate
Username: Lisamm

Post Number: 6
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 08:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good to know, I guess with my vet he said most of the time if they show now signs of uneasyness it did not work on them... Thanks Jos for the link I actually read it before and was very helpfull!! It also said they ovulate almost universally 9 days after the last dose of the hormones, tomorrow will be 9 days!! She usually grows 5mm a day, we gave her HCG at 11am today and will inseminate her tomorrow at 8am! Wish me luck!!! Thanks for all the help!!
 

Lisa M
Neonate
Username: Lisamm

Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 10:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Okay so I got some "bad" news, vet called me tonight and said that she had two follicles tonight one that was a 35 and one that was a 38. We gave her HCG this afternoon and are breeding her at 8am. He said he hopes that the big one dominates over the smaller one and we don't end up with twins. Anyone ever had this happen before?!
 

cathy Cook
Breeding Stock
Username: Razmacat

Post Number: 230
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 11:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well good news is , you used the right drug for two follicles. Do not use deslorelin with two it will make both go. HCG is the drug you can use that has a better hope of only one ovulating. I have bred countless mares on double follicles. Some resulted in twins, some did not.
 

Lisa M
Neonate
Username: Lisamm

Post Number: 9
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 11:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How successful was their pregnancy? Did you pinch on baby off? We have over $4000 for a stud fee and I hate to have to pinch one, but I just hope she only takes on one!!! Thanks for the info! ANy info will help!
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 227
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 11:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lisa last year we had a mare in to breed that had a follicle on each ovary. I bred her through one ovulation and stopped. She checked open at 18 days. Per Jos's advice the next cycle with the same scenario we bred through both ovulations. She checked at 18 days with a pregnancy in each horn. One was pinched off and she got banamine daily for 3 days.
She is at 342 days as of today.
Good Luck and don't be too afraid.
 

Lisa M
Neonate
Username: Lisamm

Post Number: 10
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 11:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy did you give the mare HCG before you bred her the first time? We only ordered one shipment, I wonder if we should have ordered two?! ARGGGGGGGGHHH I am getting really stressed!!
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 228
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 09, 2007 - 11:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lisa we did not give HCG. The mare was in to breed to our stallion and we bred live cover.
We don't want to cover more than once so we follow with US. The second cycle we ended up covering twice 48 hrs apart.
 

Lisa M
Nursing Foal
Username: Lisamm

Post Number: 11
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 12:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just hope the HCG makes the one just ovulate!!
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 229
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 12:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lisa I hope it works too!!!! I just wanted you to know that it doesn't mean you will have a bad outcome. :-)
 

Lisa M
Nursing Foal
Username: Lisamm

Post Number: 12
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 12:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Cathy, I appreciate it!! I need all the "good luck" I can get lol!!
 

Lisa M
Nursing Foal
Username: Lisamm

Post Number: 13
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 11:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well we got the semen and bred her at 8:15am, there seemed to be a problem though!! She already ovulated!!! She had a 38mm and a 35mm last night at 8pm, so she ovulated somewhere inbetween those times(within the last 12 hours), I really need help/advise now, I am so bummed!! I just pray that she took even being bred post ovulation!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1297
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 09:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Firstly, the article says "if the follicles are <3 cm, ovulation will usually occur about 9.5 days after treatment, not "almost universally" - there's a big difference!!! :-) Although in this case it looks like your mare followed the 9-day rule..!

hCG causes an acceleration of the ovulation, not the follicular growth. Hence follicles will ovulate smaller than one would normally see, and "normal daily growth" means nothing. If the follicle is larger than 35 at the time of treatment, the ovulation can occur earlier than the average 36-42 hours, quite often as early as 24 hours, which is what happened this time.

Double ovulations... not something to panic about, but rather something to be happy about! The average single ovulation pregnancy rate is about 53% per cycle, but the average double ovulation pregnancy rate is about 86%! With a recorded reduction rate to a maintained singleton of managed twins (if managed correctly) of 97%, that means that a double ovulating mare has a >83% chance of a singleton pregnancy if she is managed correctly. Which do you want - a 53% chance of a pregnant mare, or an 83% chance? Not much of decision in my book... :-)

OK... now the bad news... pregnancy rates from breedings that take place >6 hours after ovulation are slightly lower than less than 6 hours or prior to ovulation. >12 hours has a distinctly lower pregnancy establishment rate, and a higher EED rate... :-(

Fingers crossed...!
 

Lisa M
Nursing Foal
Username: Lisamm

Post Number: 14
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 10, 2007 - 09:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jos,
This is what I read off of your article and it does state "almost universally":

PROGESTERONE AND ESTRADIOL ("P & E"):
The administering of a combination of progesterone and estradiol ensures the efficient manipulation of the mares estrus cycle. The estradiol (estrogen) portion of the mixture suppresses the ovulation of any follicle present, and allows the progesterone to achieve the effect that is desired, but often doesn't occur, by it's use alone. There is currently no "brand name" product combining these 2 hormones, but it can be obtained from many veterinary compounding pharmacies. It is most commonly used in an injectable form, that requires injections once a day for 10 days, although an experimental oral form is being worked on. Prostaglandin must be administered on the 10th day also with both forms. Ovulation will occur, almost universally when combined with hCG, 9 days after the last administration of the P & E. The use of this hormonal combination is discussed at greater length in an article elsewhere on this web site available by "clicking" here


Maybe you should change it if it is wrong, I was just saying what I had read off of one of your articles about it so that is why I had stated it}..... anyways yes I am hopeing that she took I guess expect the worst and hope for the best! Thanks for all the info I really do appreciate it!!}
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1299
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 12:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're reading the article on progesterone and estradiol not prostaglandin! I referenced the article on prostaglandin above, not the one on P&E.

The ovulation does occur at 9 days after the prostaglandin shot in about 80% of cases if you are using it in conjunction with P&E!

You aren't... which is why I referenced the article on Prostaglandin.

Both articles are correct and not in need of changes... But you have to read the right one relative to the protocol you are following... :-)
 

Lisa M
Nursing Foal
Username: Lisamm

Post Number: 15
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Friday, May 11, 2007 - 01:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was referred by someone from another board (BHW) this protocol http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/moni.htm and told me this is what I needed to follow that is probably why I am messed up so bad, so for trying to get advice from someone... Thanks for clearing that up that link you sent me makes much more sense even though she ovulated before 9 days was up, I guess they don't read text books either... thanks again!



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