Ok gave mare lut shot & she came into a standing heat on day 3! So I breed her.She must have been getting ready to come into heat anyway. So my question is would the lut shot have harmed her in anyway of conceiveing?
Jos Posted From: 18.104.22.168
Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 11:05 pm:
Lutalyse (prostaglandin F2a ) when given at least 6 days after a previous ovulation can be expected to cause a mare to come into heat between 3 and 5 days later. Therefore your mare responded normally to the Lutalyse by coming into heat in 3 days.
Mares may come into heat sooner than that in the event that they have a large follicle present on their ovary at the time the Lutalyse is given. Note that the presence of a large follicle is not indicative of a mare being about to come into heat, as some mares develop "mid-cycle follicles" which may regress, or ovulate (even though they are not in heat).
Rapid return to estrus (<2 days) has been linked to a reduction in pregnancy rates. As all that happened with your mare was perfectly normal, the Lutalyse will have no negative effect on pregnancy establishment.
Cathy Posted From: 22.214.171.124
Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 09:34 pm:
I have a mare in with very vague history. She may have been in heat last week. I gave prostaglandin on Mon. 5/24 This am still not showing any signs. My vet said to give another dose today 5/29 so I did. Now 5/29 eve she is showing heat Jos what does this mean? Have I really screwed up? Cathy
Jos Posted From: 126.96.36.199
Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 10:33 pm:
One of these days I am going to write an article for this site titled "Why my prostaglandin shot didn't work like I expected" - really I am!
There are a couple of possibilities with your mare...
1: The first shot brought the mare into heat, and the second shot didn't make any difference;
2: The first shot was on the verge of bringing the mare into heat and the second shot worked on a developing follicle;
3: The first shot didn't make any difference, as it was within 6 days of a prior ovulation, but the second shot caused a rapid response because the mare had a large mid-cycle follicle.
My guess would be door number 1. That the first shot caused her to come into heat and the second shot was a waste of time.
Note that the accepted window for onset of estrus following administration of PGF2a is 3 to 5 days. So your mare, having her first shot on 05/24 and coming into heat on 05/29 apparently read the instructions better than you did.
OK.. now to the serious stuff...
IF the rapid onset of estrus following the second shot was as a result of a large follicle's response to the PGF2a, she could ovulate rapidly, as I outlined in a post above. In a perfect world, you would have this mare ultrasounded tomorrow...
But of course, the mare is also keeping another of my axioms accurate... that "if using transported semen, or the services of a veterinarian for breeding, the mare only ovulates on weekends and holidays".
Congratulations - you hit the double jackpot...
If the world is not perfect, have her ultrasounded on Tuesday. If you have the stallion standing right there, breed her tomorrow - the worst that will happen is that you will need to breed her again this cycle, but it might get you a pregnancy on a rapid ovulation, whereas holding off until the normal day-3 of standing heat may miss it...
Cathy Posted From: 188.8.131.52
Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 11:04 pm:
Jos thanks. I do have the stallion here. I will definatley breed tommorrow. I quess next time I will go by your advice, not my vets! I was very concerned that I may have wasted this heat cycle as far as conception is concerned. Thank you!! I can't wait till I attend one of your classes!! Cathy
Cathy Posted From: 184.108.40.206
Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 07:10 pm:
Today the mare was showing very strong estrus to our stallion. She was very receptive squatting winking ect. The whole time they talked. The minute he mounted she started kicking violently. She broke the breeding hobbles. I managed to get him out of there with no damage. I then sedated her. Both legs tied with cotton ropes. Same thing except she managed to kick out of one leg rope and got the stallion in the inner left thigh. It was a small gash and didnít bleed much. I gave her another sedative, leg restraints reapplied much shorter and twitched very tightly. She still showed and we got her bred, but she would have liked to kick. She is a 14 year old maiden. This is the worst experience I have had. Is there anything I can do to prevent this from happening again? I do not have the facilities to collect and donít know how to teach the stallion anyway. I gave the stallion 2 gm of Bute and started him on SMZís. Three hours latter he is very reluctant to walk. Iím pretty bummed as you can guess I really hope that 2nd dose of prostaglandin has her out before Tuesday. Cathy
What a bummer Cathy! I sympathise - having had a similar battle with an 11 yo maiden over the week-end - but fortunately with no damage to the stallion! I do hope your boy is feeling a bit better in the morning, and that the wicked witch is 1) not standing and 2) in foal!
Do you use kicking boots - they do seem to reduce the impact of a kick quite a lot.
Janet thanks He is much better. Had a hard time breeding a different mare tonight. He started out OK then she lifted a leg, and he shut down completely, which has never happened before so I attribute it to last night. After letting him be with her quite a while he finally mounted and bred. I have never heard of or seen kicking boots. I would be very interested in any info you could give me. Thankyou Cathy
They are heavy felt boots that cover the hind feet completely - really reduces the impact of a kick.
I'm not surprised he was a bit reluctant - poor chap!
Cathy Posted From: 220.127.116.11
Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 12:30 am:
Janet thanks for the links!! She was still showing STRONG signs. We bred ser again, but this time we were prepared. Tranqued,legs tied, twitched. When he mounted she really wanted to kick the crap out of him again. He mounted once right away and ejaculated. We are HAPPY. OK now we are hoping she is out tommorow night. Cathy
Rusty Posted From: 18.104.22.168
Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 04:08 pm:
This a great thread. Hi Jos and all Rusty here. Ive been working away this season, and while my AI program didn't make me rich, my live covers are starting to pay the rent. I got a call on tuesday from a nice couple who says they are 5000 dollars into the breeding season with one mare, and she has not taken yet. They called me becuse I am very affordable, and they can no longer afford the vet bills of insemenating thier mare. So as of Tusday this mare had a follicle of 40, since this mare is of much higher quality than I usually deal with,and my facilities are less than some might find acceptable, I aggreed to take my boy to thier house and try and breed her on the spot. She showed no signs, and had no intensions of breeding. The next day they graeciously brought her to my house for a "booty call". She still had no interest. This girl has been on more hormones this year than The Rock as they have been diligenly trying to get her bred since February. I told them if they would just come by every third day from now on, we will catch her in a normal heat, and then breed every other day until she goes out. Was this the best advice? Thanks for your help, and thanks for this great web site Rusty
This is a really good thread. I have been out of breeding for a couple years and now am trying to refresh my memory and get back into it. There are pieces of things that I remember and I am trying to put it all together. I remember us giving mares leutalyse to bring them into heat. My question is because I can't remember, if I give them the shot of leutalyze wait until they come into heat (3-5 days) once they come in heat give them a day or two then breed them are they ovulating. Because if the mare is ovulating when you give her the shot and you breed in day one or two - she should catch on one breeding. And if I can make it that I only have to breed a mare once two get her caught that means less time that a mare is at your barn waiting to come in heat and then waiting for her to go out of heat and then checking to see if she caught. Any help would be great!
I really need some information on when to give Lutalyse. I have a mare here to be bred and she has been here for 18 days and no sign of heat. I have had her next to the stallion for the last 12 days and was teasing her every other day previous to that and she has no interest. She has her first foal beside her. Her owners are wanting her to have a Lutalyse shot from my vet,but if she just went out of standing heat before they brought her, she should be coming in by now, right? To make matters worse this mare flattens her ears everytime you go anywhere near her. I thought it was because of the foal, but her owners tell me she is always like that. She even tried to bite me one day as I poured her grain into her feeder, so obviously I want to handle this mare as little as possible and would just love for her to go home ASAP. If she is ready to come into heat and she is given Lutalyse, would it cause problems? I have read that a mare will come into standing heat 3 to 5 days after the shot, but doesn't actually ovulate for up to 18 days. I think I am getting a lot of misinformation on this subject and I have only one experience with it.
I think this is more of an ethics question. If the mare owners do not understand how prostaglandin works, even though I forwarded your article to them, is it my place as the stallion owner to tell them they are wasting their money on the shots? I really feel this mare that has been here for 21 days should be examined before being given a shot of prostaglandin, but they have been thoroughly convinced by someone that the shot works no matter what and I risk bad feelings if I don't do as they request. Also, the second mare they brought had a ten day old foal on her and this mare appears to me to be in excellent condition and had a normal foal heat and should settle on a normal "30 day" heat. They brought her on the 10th day because the mare squealed when the foal nursed and they felt she was coming into heat (?). I feel giving a shot to her now may just mess her cycles up. What are the possible repercussions on these two mares?
The ethics situation from a stallion owner's point of view is actually quite simple if they do not own the mare (as in this situation).
Prostaglandin is a restricted drug, to be given only under veterinary supervision. As the mare is not your own mare, it is actually very questionable whether it is even legal for you to administer the drug unless you have been specifically told to do so by a veterinarian. There are possible side-effects from administering the drug, which in rare cases can lead to severe complications (colic and death). You should therefore require direct instruction from the attending veterinarian to administer this drug.
Now, this leads to an interesting situation...
If their vet simply tells you to administer the drug without having evaluated the mare's ovarian status, [s]he has assumed all liability for (a)failure to work; or (b)negative side effects. OTOH, if the vet is worth his/her salt, and is not familiar with the mare, [s]he will probably tell the mare owners about the possible failure and side effects, and may well want to evaluate the mare prior to her being given the PGF2a.
The same thing can apply to the second mare. It is actually unlikely that it would "mess her cycle up" - it will either work or not, but again, there is a liability question, and you can pass that responsibility on to the mare owner or veterinarian very easily by pointing that out. BTW - a "liability disclaimer" is not going to be of great value here, as (a) you're not a veterinarian, and administering a drug to someone else's animal may put you in contravention of the State VPA; and (b)you know and acknowledge there are possible negative side effects, and therefore assume a degree of liability regardless of the disclaimer.
My own disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, so if you want to check the validity of the above, talk to a lawyer!
Thanks Jos. I called the owner of the mares and talked to him about it and he absolutely wanted these mares to have the shot. I told him I would not give it and I would have the vet come out and do it, so he could expect a charge for a farm call too. I just can't understand why someone would want to give a shot like this to a perfectly healthy, normal 6 year old mare without even giving her a chance to come into heat, as is the case with the second mare. I might be getting too old and crochety to deal with outside mares. Actually, it's not the mares, it's the people.
Well, the use of PGF2a can be very valuable to assist in timing of the cycle to a degree (it will not pinpoint ovulation, but can be beneficial in timing onset of estrus), although it is not without its faults in that respect.
It may or may not be beneficial, depending upon circumstances, but it isn't generally detrimental, as the hormone is a naturally occurring hormone - it's what actually causes the mare to come into estrus by herself, so you're essentially resetting her internal clock by giving it to her.
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