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WNV vaccine during late term pregnancy

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Pregnant Mare and the Newborn Foal - Volume 1 » WNV vaccine during late term pregnancy « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Jos
Posted From: 158.252.241.135
Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 05:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

MODERATOR MESSAGE

The West Nile Virus vaccine, is a current hot discussion topic on the Internet amongst horse breeders, having temporarily replaced the use of Rhinopneumonitis vaccine and Regumate as debate topics. It is very important however that observations made with regards to side-effects from the use of any new vaccine, drug or procedure be based on scientific evidence. Observations made by lay persons are likely to be - albeit unintentionally - misleading, as there can be many other scientific factors which are not understood or known of by the poster. It is important therefore that any observations made herein - unless supported by hard scientific facts which are presented (for example a pathology report), be taken with the proverbial "grain of salt". If persons who have experienced alleged problems with WNV or any other vaccine (the Rhinopneumonitis vaccines - "Pneumabort-K" or "Prodigy" - are a good example, there being many supposed connections with abortion which when investigated turn out not to be connected at all) they must submit tissue to a diagnostic pathology laboratory and avoid jumping to conclusions.

Over the years, I have seen many "diagnoses" made by well-intentioned lay persons which are - to be honest - laughable, let alone inaccurate, simply because of a lack of knowledge. Please be aware that there are many, many causes of abortion, and yet rarely do people submit the fetus and membranes for necropsy, preferring instead to blame something because "someone else told them about it" or a problem happens to be the "disease du jour".

Hard scientific facts make reliable diagnoses. Anecdotal evidence does not!
 

Sandy
Posted on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 - 05:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have heard that it is not a good idea to give a pregnant mare the WNV vaccine during the last several weeks during a pregnancy.
Does anyone know why?
I have 4 mares that are all over 330 days, and I would like to know whether or not it is safe to give the vaccine. My vet says yes, but has also told me that some people have said that they wouldn't recommend it, but that it is just being superstitious.
I have checked the web site for Fort Dodge, the makers of the vaccine and they said that it does not state anywhere on the vaccine's lable that it is safe to give to pregnant mares, but that testing has proved it to be safe. So, I'm not sure what to do. I would like to vaccinate the mares if there is the chance that vaccinating the mares will offer some protection for the foals after they are born, but at the same time I don't want to vaccinate if it is harmful to the foals. Any advice would be appreciated.
 

kel
Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 12:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

my friends mare is due any day, and she just had her 2nd WNV vaccine the other day, and no problems...
just awaiting on the little foal to comeout :-)
 

Anonymous
Posted on Thursday, April 24, 2003 - 09:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I also gave my mare the WNV vaccine during the last month of pregnancy. There are no real statistics, however there is some information on the AAEP website that says the maternal antibodies can interfere in the foal for up to 6 mos. so the foal can't get the vaccine until they are 6 mos. old. Since my mare had been previously vaccinated for WNV, she has antibodies, therefore the foal would have antibodies.

That's why I gave my mare the vaccine booster at 1 month before she foaled, so the foal has as much protection as possible.
 

Sandy
Posted on Saturday, April 26, 2003 - 11:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the info.
I did go ahead and give all of my mares the WN vaccine, and none of them had any adverse reactions. All are doing well, and we're just waiting for those babies!
Thanks.
 

Anonymous
Posted From: 204.162.126.95
Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 02:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I vaccinated 2 of my mares 30+ days before they were due with the West Nile Vaccine. 7 days later one mare foaled 30 days early and we lost the foal. The other mare foaled 5 days later and the foal was dead when we found it. It never got up but the front end was out of the sack although the hind legs were still in it. He didn't look like he had moved. My mares also had 2 West Nile vaccine shots in the first trimester with these same babies. Everything seemed fine to me until I gave the last vaccination. These were fairly young mares, both having their 4th foal and were in great shape. Call me crazy, but if I vaccinate them again for West Nile, it will be after they foal and before I breed them back. I am waiting the arrival of my 3rd and last foal. This mare was vaccinated about 60 days before foaling.
 

Jos
Posted From: 142.177.106.86
Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 08:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What did the autopsy results show? You did have autopsies performed didn't you?
 

S Smith
Posted From: 65.118.224.162
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 08:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a link to a website regarding WNV and pregnant mares. It's pretty scary. I think we all need to push Fort Dodge for some answers.
http://lost-foals-group.4t.com/
 

nadine
Posted From: 205.188.208.70
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 08:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wouldn't do it...After lots of thought and reassuring advice from my vet, I went ahead and gave my pregnant mares the two WNV shots this spring. However, I now have a sick foal in the clinic with an unexplainable illness, he was rather weak from the beginning and got sick at 9 days with diarrhea and dehydration. We can't find the cause for it. I have decided NOT to vaccinate my mares while pregnant again...
 

Sandy
Posted From: 67.31.169.76
Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 01:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi,
I'm the one who started this post and I must say, I'm glad I hadn't read all of the things posted so far before I gave my mares the WNV vaccine or else I probably wouldn't have given it to them!

I just wanted to let you all know that all 4 of my foals were born healthy and with the youngest of the 4 being at 6 weeks of age, all are still doing fine.
There were absolutely no adverse reactions to the mares or their foals after having given the vaccine.
But now after reading these other posts, I don't know if I'd do it again. Maybe I just got lucky.
 

Sammie
Posted From: 12.145.186.66
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 12:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I too had three mares that were vaccinated twice with WNV. All had healthy term babies.
 

Sandy
Posted From: 64.158.64.147
Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 05:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sammie,
Did you check out the link that S. Smith put on here for the lost foals group?
I looked at that site and it scared me to death.
Do you think maybe we just got lucky with having healthy, term foals? And if you did look at that site, would you vaccinate your pregnant mares again?
I am totally confused now on whether or not it is worth the risk. And I appreciate the preface to this subject that Jos has posted, but after looking at the lost foals' group website, I don't know if I would honestly believe that it is just a "desease du jour" that is causing these horrible things that are happening to these foals. Of course I would love to think and set it aside as just mere coincidence that so many people have had so many lost and/or deformed foals, and it just so happens that every one of these cases is somehow linked to the WNV vaccine,but it's kind of hard.
And it is a little difficult to scientifically link it to the vaccine, when the makers of the vaccine deny any and all connections instead of themselves offering to do any research. JMO.
 

Jos
Posted From: 158.252.241.186
Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 11:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Case in Point to Support my Opening Message

Just the other day after posting the above "moderator message", I was contacted by someone who was concerned about the possibility of the WNV vaccine having caused pregnancy loss in some of their mares that they bred last season and which had subsequently been found to be "open". They had visited the above web site, and based on their observation of that site, had posted a message on a major e-mail list saying how "it was all starting to make sense". They "cc'd" me that e-mail.

In addition to the "cc" they also sent me a private e-mail bemoaning the fact that the vaccine was most likely the cause of the pregnancy loss, as they had bred the mares, had them checked in foal, and then the mares were vaccinated against WNV, and subsequently were found to be empty.

The Rest of the Story

The mares were indeed checked in foal, and then vaccinated. All within the first 45 days after breeding which is when organogenesis (formation of the fetus' internal organs) occurs, and which is a time when all pregnant mares must be kept toxin-free. In other words, giving any vaccine or contact with any toxin during that stage is likely to result in pregnancy loss!

My Point

I e-mailed a reply to this person, but the damage had already been done, and the myth of the "dangers" of WNV vaccine had been perpetuated. Now an entire e-mail list had heard from one of it's valued members about how evil this vaccine is, and how it "almost certainly" caused the loss of these pregnancies...

Well, yes, it may well have done - but so might any vaccine, dewormer, fly spray or a host of other toxins to which horses are regularly exposed as a matter of course, because it had been given in the first 45 days of pregnancy!

Nobody else on that e-mail list is likely to have been aware of that, and nobody pointed it out. And so the myth perpetuates...
 

Anonymous
Posted From: 67.250.112.69
Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 01:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The internet has been the greatest cause of rumor in the world. Anyone can post anything and it is then taken as fact by alot of people.
Some of the best theriogenologists in the US, as well as major equine hospitals such as Rood and Riddle, and Colorado State U. have come out stating they have seen no correlation between WNV and reproductive loss. They all recommend not vaccinating for anything in the first 60 days and last 30 days of pregnancy
It is a good thing WNV was not around in the spring of 2001. The MRLS would have probably been blamed on it too.
 

doubletfarm
Posted From: 170.215.0.158
Posted on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 03:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I too have a friend that vaccinated 3 of her 5 bred mares for WNV.
Two of the mares were given WNV within 5-6 weeks prior to their delivery dates, the third mare had already foaled a healthy foal when she was vaccinated. 27 days after the late term mares were vaccinated the first mare aborted, 3 days later the other mare delivered a stillborn.
The two mares that had not been vaccinated had live healthy foals. A necropsy was done on both foals, placentas etc. Blood was drawn from the mares and also sent in and checked. Absolutely nothing was found wrong with the foals or the mares. The results were sent to the USDA.
These were only the 2nd necropsy results sent to the USDA according to the gentleman that is in charge of looking into any relationship between the WNV and pregnancy problems.
According to the U of Colorado, they made a statement that they cannot associate the foaling problems with the WNV vaccine because there have been no scientific studies or evidence proving a problem. You can take that same statment and say
there is no evidence that says the vaccine does not cause problems because there have been no scientific studies done.
This same friend published an article in a small hometown paper. She recieved a call from a breeder not far from where she lives. The breeder foals out around 30 mares a year if I remember right. She vaccinated her mares for WNV. 25 of them had already foaled. The last five were close up to foaling. All 5 of the close up pregnant mares had stillborns. She did not have necropy studies done on any of those foals. She was not aware there was a possible link to foaling problems with the vaccine and until she saw my friends article she thought she'd go to her grave wondering why those five mares had stillborns.
 

Anonymous
Posted From: 204.162.126.95
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 05:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was just wondering why I haven't heard of any further research done after birds in a Toronto zoo died after being given the West Nile vaccine. To me it is the missing link. To quote the article found at http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E24167%257E1503947,00.html
"The dead birds' internal organs showed signs of autoimmune hemolytic anemia, an ailment that turns the body against itself, destroying red blood cells that ferry oxygen.
In an e-mail to other veterinarians, the Toronto Zoo's Christopher Dutton said the deaths were "possibly" caused by the vaccination."

If you do a little research on the above problem everything concerning mares aborting and having stillbirths might start coming together.

To quote from a link at http://www.cloudnet.com/~jdickson/
"Most of the time, a specific cause for AIHA is unrecognized. Many theories exist, but the ultimate answer is "We donít know." Dr. Jean Dodds, a veterinarian studying immunology, states in her article, The Immune System and Disease Resistance, that there are four main causative factors of autoimmune diseases. Those factors are: Genetic predisposition; Hormonal influences ; Infections, especially of viruses and Stress. Dr. Dodds also feels that the multivalent modified-live vaccines overstimulate the immune system. There may be evidence to support this theory because the Merck Veterinary Manual states: " recently, the most typical cases of AIHA in dogs have been marked by a nonregenerative anemia. Some of these cases have occurred after exposure to parvovirus or modified live parvovirus vaccine."
 

Jos
Posted From: 158.252.214.198
Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 03:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Probably because the report (which was published in May, 2003) was subsequently thoroughly refuted by a variety of highly creditable sources, including USDA-Aphis!

For more information visit the article on the report at "The Horse" magazine, which you can access by clicking here.
 

jsimicek
Posted From: 152.163.252.65
Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 12:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I did not vaccinate any pregnant mares. All of my mares were open in 2002 and I vaccinated my open mares prior to breeding. Three outside mares were vaccinated while open.

None of my mares became pregnant in 2002 although they were bred several cycles. Actually, they were getting pregnant, just losing the pregnancy very early. Target testing during diestrus showed a lack of progesterone. No mare had progesterone in early pregnancy and only four of these mares were over ten. We got no foals although all but two mares had early pregnancies. We had not a clue what was happening. Two young mares quit cycling almost completely and one appeared to be sub fertile on u/s as her ovaries were abnormally small. This was in the summer.

In 2003 we bred mostly the same mares. We had not given the booster for w nile vaccine and first u/s session looked encouraging. Older mare had a healthy looking conceptus, young mare felt pregnant but we could not see conceptus, another young mare had twins but seemed to be losing them. All mares came up open by next u/s and young mare had persistent cl. We put older mare in pen with different stallion and bred the mare that had twins back to original stallion and she is pregnant due in April. Older mare conceived and lost 30 day pregnancy by older stallion. We decided to show the young mare who had the persistent cl so she was not bred again.

Three outside mares who had their boosters were bred and re bred three cyles in 2003 and either lost their pregnancies or did not conceive. These mares are young, two maiden, one had a foal in 2002. They had clean cultures.

Ultrasound showed mare with small ovaries to still have small ovaries in April 2003. I had a stallion I decided to turn out. We put three older mares out with him and also the mare with small ovaries. This was May. He was beaten up by one mare and did not breed turned out (at first)but we hand bred the mare with small ovaries. She is in foal and due in late April. In June he bred one mare that had lost three pregnancies. This mare is due in May. Later we learned that the two other mares are in foal.

We saw the info on the lost foal site in the summer. We feel that there may be something to it but there are some folks that want to find a reason for losing a foal and this is a place to put the blame. We do feel that pregnant mares that had the w. nile series probably experienced some problems in some cases, but for the most part, pregnant mares delivered normal foals. We feel that something in this shot caused our mares to lack progesterone during their cycles and early pregnancies. We feel that our problem was due to giving these mares this vaccine when they were open. Nine of these mares had the same series of the vaccine. All of the mares were open when given the vaccine. No mare carried past 45 days in 2002. In 2003, all mares conceived and carried except four. Three of these mares had the w. nile booster. The other one had fever of 104.5 after breeding.

I believe that there is a strong possibility that the problems I saw with my mares was due to the w.nile vaccine. I realize that turning the older mares out with a stallion would help older mares with delayed clearance. I still do not understand the lack of progesterone during diestrus and early pregnancy that we saw in 2002. I feel that the effects of this vaccine given in the early summer of 2002 began to wear off in May of 2003 in mares not boostered.

 

Becky R
Posted From: 207.173.253.65
Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 01:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have been all over the internet looking for information on WNV vaccine in relationship to bred mares. I have 2 mares in foal, so needless to say it is a very important issue to me.

In 2002 I bought my first broodmare and she was supposed to be in foal. She is "Miss Fertil Mertil", one of those "never a problem mares". I have know this mare since she was 2(when I bought her she was 13), and she has had 7 successful pregnancies. Well, I got her home and loe and behold, she was open. Her uterus was distended and full of air. This mare HAD NEVER BEEN VACCINATED FOR ANYTHING IN HER LIFE. Literally.


I had brought her home in the fall, and she was supposed to be 4 months along. I vaccinated her with rabies, WNV, Rhino, and a 4 way. I boostered her faithfully 3 weeks to the day, as I did the rest of my gang. The rest only recieved WNV as they had already been vaccinated for everything else.

In the spring of 2003, I boostered again on March 1st for Rabies, WNV, Rhino, and 4-way again. I took my broodmare to the stud on March 15th and she was covered twice. She took and has had a healthy pregnancy. She is due to foal 30 days from today. Yesterday I boostered her vaccines again. Throughout her pregnancy she was given her Pneumabort-K on schedule.

My other mare that is in foal showed regular heat cycles and took just fine, also. She is a maiden mare and I wouldn't have been surprised if she had some problems.

All in all I have vaccinated about 20 horses for WNV and I haven't had a problem yet. Maybe I am lucky. When I look at the "Lost Foal Group", I have to ask myself how many of those owners cultured their mares, it seemed to me that many of them were vaccinating in the first 60 days of gestation. My vet would STRANGLE me if I vaccinated FOR ANYTHING or de-wormed in the first 60 days of pregnancy.

I just don't know. I am not a vet, but it seems that there should be more documantation, tests, and more necopracies preformed before people start slinging hash. I am sure that there have been some bad reactions, but I doubt seriously that ALL the blame should be placed on the WNV vaccine.

I know of a stud that was vaccinated with a Rhino vaccine, he had a reaction and died. Rhino vaccine has been around forever. Sometimes these things DO happen. But, for me personally, when I weigh the risk of my horses contracting WNV against vaccinating for it? Well, I just have to go with vaccinating.

I also have to keep in mind that my "never a problem mare" had PLENTY of problems BEFORE she was ever vaccinated for ANYTHING. I have less problems now, and she has been vaccinated.
 

Becky R
Posted From: 207.173.253.237
Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I forgot to mention that the stud I mentioned was autopsied and it was proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that the vaccine was a "bad batch" and was the cause of his death.

I will be sure to post how things turn out with my mare when she foals.
 

Laura B.
Posted From: 24.151.126.25
Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 08:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know if this will help anyone but my mare had a surprise foal last spring. When I purchased her I was not informed that she had been exposed to the farms stallion in any way, never a peep from previous owner that there was a chance of her being pregnant. So when she arrived, I had already arranged for our vet to administer the west niles series to her with the first being two days after arrival. Had either I, or our vet been aware of the fact that she was breed recently within a month or so of that we might not have administer this set of shots at that time, but LOL we where not aware of pregnancy til she was almost into the last trimester and it became evident outwardly. So my mare did not recieve the normal treatment or aviod other treatments as might have been the case if we had been aware. I guess my point in a round about way of saying is that out of three mares up here that foaled out within a months time, my mares foal is the biggest and the healthest out of them even though mare was administered the WNV shots in early pregnancy. And yes I am aware of how lucky we are.
 

Jsimicek
Posted From: 64.12.96.40
Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 03:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Since I posted last, I have had the opportunity to research some and to contact other owners who have had the same problems with mares that I did, following w. nile vaccination. There are some similarities. Most I have spoken to who gave the w. nile vaccine to open mares are in Texas and the dates of giving the vaccine were just following a shortage and backorder. We feel that the problems may be batch specific. In view of this, we feel that Ft. Dodge should make some effort to follow up on this.

We do feel very strongly that there is or was a problem with this vaccine which caused mares to fail to cycle or maintain pregnancy.
 

loriannbuck
Posted From: 67.74.104.137
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2004 - 02:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i would have to agree with those posts that say to autopsy the foal. my mare is too precious not to vaccinate. there are so many reasons for mares aborting, and to just play scientist and blame it on the newest vaccine dosen't seem like rational thinking. loosing foals can make you go a little crazy, but until i see actual results saying this is so, i will write this off as urban legend. i hope it isn't proven down the road that this is so... may we all have healthy foals!!!
 

Val
Posted From: 216.166.159.4
Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 07:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have four mares in their last 40 days of gestation. Last year I had 15 mares who received two WN shots , the 2nd being in the last 30 days of preg. One mare had a dead foal, no other problems. This year, with a different vet, he has recommended NOT giving a West Nile booster to the mares in the last 40 days. Not sure what to do. If the mares don't have any residual immunity from last year, the foal will be unprotected. So...is it maybe lose a pregnancy, or lose a foal, and maybe a mare later? Since the vaccine is a killed virus, I wasn't worried about it last year......but now getting conflicting info from a new vet. Ideas?
 

Becky R
Posted From: 207.173.253.137
Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 01:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just an update. My mare foaled a big healthy bay filly. No problems and all is well. She was boostered for WN one month bfore she was due, along with all her other vaccines. One more to go....
 

Anonymous
Posted From: 67.42.53.69
Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 05:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

IMHO if something isn't labeled for something... ie, the vaccine isn't labeled for breeding animals... I wouldn't use it. Unfortunately, I did use the wnv vaccine in 2003 on my vet's recommendation, without knowing that (in the last trimester), and lost one (severely contracted tendons, dummy, born 3 weeks premie just after innoculation)of three foals. This is the second foal I've lost in 23 years of breeding. Hmmm... Two of the three mares had rebreeding problems. Only one "took" and she's the one that lost hers last year. She's due in a month.

I'm not one to jump to conclusions. Still, until the vaccine is actually labeled for breeding horses, I won't use it again. There's a reason for "labeling." If we use something against the labeling, the maker is protected from suit.

A word about autopsies... I have read a number of referrences to foals that were autopsied after their death was suspected to have been caused by the vaccine, and the cause of death could not be determined. Isn't this rather odd that nothing at all shows up??? I don't have any experience with autopsies, since I'd never before lost a foal to causes that weren't immediately obvious.
 

autumn
Posted From: 134.121.20.19
Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 04:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello horse owners... I am having my first foaling next month and my vet is suggesting the wnv vaccination for her on monday (that's two days!) I'm not sure I want it, Skunk came from a closed PMU herd and wasn't given many vaccinations. I want a healthy mare and foal but don't know what's better; vaccinations or taking the risk. I live in a misquiteo area (sorry about spelling) in western washington. However the mare and foal will be moved to the drier climates of eastern washington at the end of the year. Skunk could foal anyday, the pmu farmer didn't know the exact date; he said she's due in "may". She's also bagging up (no waxing). Any advice would be great. (ps i have looked at the lost foal page!)
 

Bill & Sue Arnold
Posted From: 205.188.116.21
Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 11:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here a testimaonial about noni juice, horses, and west niles. We feel this should be the natural alternative to wnv shots. www.noniforhorses2.com
West Nile Symptoms Relieved

"On August 31, 2002, Babe, a prized 1600 pound Belgium mare horse went down with vet-confirmed West Nile Symptoms. As the day went on she tried to get up without success. By noon her symptoms had progressed to the point of her hind legs being paralyzed. It was a pitiful sight for those watching her futile struggle to get back on her feet. Everyone felt so helpless knowing that normally when a horse is down they have to be destroyed.

When Lois Ö heard of the plight of her son's horse she made arrangements for a bottle of NONI Juice to be taken to his farm right away. He felt he had nothing to lose as he was sure that death was only hours away for his beautiful horse. About 7 PM he administered about 4 oz. down a tube into her throat.

To his utter amazement, by 7 AM the next morning, Babe was on her feet and eating and drinking. It was beyond anyone's expectations that she would recover that quickly. Seeing her grazing in the pasture later in the day was a most welcome sight. She is now so energetic that some days it is difficult to corral her to give her the planned maintenance dose of 2 oz. per day, which she gets on her oats!

On September 21, 2002, another female horse, which was pregnant, went down and again the same miracle resulted in eight hours.

A third horse went down on the 23rd and again the same wonderful outcome. This horse had been vaccinated for West Nile Virus and came down with the symptoms in spite of that.

September 24th, Lois received a frantic call from the owner of Tequila, a Shetland pony, who was running a fever and its whole body was becoming stiff. Her owner was so happy to find that 7 hours after getting the NONI Juice Tequila was standing up, and the fever was gone.

All four of these horses are from a rural Minnesota area. All four of them continue to do well on a varying maintenance dose of the juice.

One final note: all four owners are now drinking NONI Juice themselves!"

From L Lawrence (sister of the owner of Babe) and L Moe (mother of the owner of Babe)
 

full of doubt
Posted From: 4.239.243.138
Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 01:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hahahaha...sorry!!!
 

Anonymous
Posted From: 64.119.36.219
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 01:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm looking forward to breeding my Arabian mare in about 12 days but I just got an email from the breeder cautioning me not to give her the WN vaccine. Unfortunatley it was too late, since the vet had visited that morning. I have been searching the internet and so far everything that I have read about mares who have complications that could be related to WN vaccines have been given the vaccine after they were pregnant. Has anyone had problems with the vaccine if you give it to your mare before the pregnancy?
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.227.133.252
Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 01:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I gave all of my mares the WNV vaccine prior to breeding this year, and all have settled with no complications.
The only mare I have had a problem with, is one who DIDN'T receive her vaccine prior to breeding. I got so caught up with breeding, that I bred her before I remembered to give her the shot. She settled, but apparantly has absorbed, so I gave her the vaccine after the vet said that she was found open. So, I gave her the vaccine at that time, and now she isn't returning to heat. But I do not think it has anything to do with the vaccine at all.
I have also given my mares their vaccines during the final months of pregnancy, and have not had any problems there either.
 

Logician
Posted From: 209.248.218.30
Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 04:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"post hoc, ergo propter hoc" has always been a fallacy in logic, and it is no less so when applied to horses and the medical problems they face. Surely, we need serious and reliable documentation before we can simply ignore the recommendations of so many veterinarians, don't we?

By the way, "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" is Latin for "after this, therefore because of this." It means that some might conclude that because an event follows something, that "something" was the cause of the event. That is how some people are viewing some of the foaling difficulties in relation to wnv vaccinations. But I wonder how many of those mares were inadvertantly exposed to fescue or other noxious weeds and grasses, which have been PROVEN to cause aborted pregnancies?

Don't get me wrong, the wnv vaccines may very well be the cause the LFG website says it is. But they are going to need some actual proof rather than anecdotal evidences and rabid assertions!
 

Anonymous
Posted From: 137.186.22.168
Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 08:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Food for thought:

If the WNV vaccine had been released for general use the same year that the Mare Reproductive Loss Syndrome (MRLS) hit Kentucky and some of the neighbouring States, what do you think the lay population conclusion would have been?

I'm still waiting for conclusive evidence of problems associated with WNV vaccine use in pregnant mares - and I do mean conclusive, not anecdotal... it's been almost 4 months now, and still nothing yet...
 

Anonymous
Posted From: 198.81.26.13
Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 02:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I gave my Mare the vaccine in FEB and didn't breed her till May. We are expecting in April next year, still pregnant and she even had a recent bout with pidgeon fever still preg.BUT....the stallion owner was not giving the WNV vaccines to her guys, her vet had heard of stallion not being fertil after recieving the shot. I would rather have to breed back than to lose my mare.
 

Anonymous
Posted From: 198.81.26.13
Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 02:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the above post is mine my vet also told me before I bred to give her all vaccines 60 days brfore I bred including the second shot for WNv and worm her 30 days before and not again until 4 months preg.She also said to wait till the foal is born to give her next years and she will eval at the time to do the foal. I am so glad I have a good Vet. that keeps me well informed. I live in No. CA a very high area with alot of mosquitos in the spring.I hope they get this figured out I want to breed again next spring.
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.227.172.239
Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In response to the post where the stallion owner's vet had said not to vaccinate stallions because they would not be fertile:
I vaccinated both of my stallions before the breeding season began this year, and both stallions have had 100% fertility rates this year. Every mare bred by both are in foal for next year.
What good is it to even own a stallion if it is a dead one due to West Nile? I know my stallions are too valuable to take the risk.
 

Anonymous
Posted From: 216.193.195.66
Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 02:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I AM THINKING OF BREEDING MY FAVORIT MARE I DO NOT WANT TO LOSE HER TO WN BUT SHE HAS NOT COME INTO SEASON STRONG SENSE I GAVE HER THE SHOTS THIS MARCH WILL BE A YEAR SENSE SHE HAS HAD THE SHOT WE HAVE A SHORT MOSQUITO SEASON JUNE TO SEPT SO ONLY GIVE ONE BOOSTER A YEAR DO YOU THINK I CAN GIVE HER A SHOT AFTER HER FIRST TRIMESTER HELP!!
 

Liz Hardy
Posted From: 152.163.100.13
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 08:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I gave my mare her first WNV when she was 5 months pregnant... and she did fine.. baby is now 2 1/2 yrs old and same mare is pregnant again for a late 2005 baby.....

As long as she is not in her first trimester there is no problem with the WNV vaccine or any vaccine for that matter.

My mare got pregnant in Nov 2004 the month she was to have her Yearly vaccinations... SO we have to wait til about April or May to give her yearlys that includes her WNV
 

Anonymous
Posted From: 68.237.170.178
Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 01:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you are living in an area with a high mosquito population, remember - no mare, no foal!
 

Anonymous
Posted From: 209.92.178.122
Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 11:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where are the studies that Dr. Godbee supposedly performed or observed that show effects of Noni juice? I see he is a general manager for the product and has retail background. I see he authored a paper comparing beef, pork and chevaline patties...hmmm let's see, chevaline, cheval....could that be-HORSEMEAT?
 

Eagle View Arabians
Posted From: 205.188.116.13
Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 09:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There was a recent study done by University of Kentucky (I think) that shows there are absolutely NO LINKS between WNV vaccines and deformed foals or abortions. If anyone is interested on reading about it, there is an article in the April issue of Equus.
 

Jos
Posted From: 4.242.3.209
Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 02:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, the study was done by Texas A&M and published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association.

Vest DJ, Cohen ND, Berezowski CJ, Morehead JP, Blodgett GP, Blanchard TL. (2004) Evaluation of administration of West Nile virus vaccine to pregnant broodmares. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2004 Dec 15;225(12):1894-7.

You can follow that link to read the abstract of the research.
 

Eagle View Arabians
Posted From: 152.163.100.13
Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 10:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jos, I couldn't remember who actually did the study! :-)
 

Anonymous
Posted From: 69.95.45.135
Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 12:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I attended a clinic for the Fort Dodge WNV vaccination. The part that fascinated me about the clinic was due to the fact that human can contract WN the lab was not allowed to use the real WN, they had to use a man made one. When they orginally tested it they tested the horses immunitity against their man made virus. I thought that was sort of odd seeing that there statistics didn't show that great of a protection against the live form (according to there study since the vaccination has been being used) When you really think about it though a man made virus isn't going to be as complex as the live form. (every virus has different strains) Because of this and seeing how some people had absolutely no problems with their mares being giving the shot during pregancy and some mare have problems (now realize that we will never know without autopsy the cause of death) Is it possible if it was the WNV vac. that maybe the man made form had a bad batch of something - unfortunately we are human and errors can be made plus when you are dealing with something man made not everytime is the products used exactly the same. Now just as a note I don't vaccinate my horse against WNV for a couple reasons, One being that horses have an incredible immune system when their environment is as natural as possible (my horse drink out of a natural spring, live out doors 24/7) and I believe as long as they are healthy they are less likely to contract a disease (I do vaccinate for Rhino, Influenza, Tetanus and Encep. on my horses that go to shows or in a place with many outside horses) the second reason is because I was not impressed with the Fort Dodge Rep ability to answer questions in regards to the vaccination. "It can't be Contracted from horse to horse but if Amish horse goes trotting past your farm and has it your horse could get it. The mesquito bits the one horse then bits your horse? No, the mesquito would have to bite the horse, then go bit a bird, and then go bite your horse" (It seemed a little confusing to me) But anyhow that is just my imput on the matter.
 

Marlo (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 64.254.97.10
Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 05:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can certainly understand how a controversy can be fueled about the West Nile Virus Vaccine. In 2003 we followed our vets advice and gave it to our horses, 2 studs, 3 broodmares about ready to foal and at the time the 3rd mares was just past the safe timeframe. We again gave the shots early in 2004 before breeding. Evidently, too close to breeding or something. The mare that had been in foal from 2003 had slipped before the 2004 shots. The breeding season for 2004 was absolutely a nightmare. We bred the mares several times right thru November,,including one outside mare that had been given the shots. Nothing. We have never had a problem in 15 years and all of a sudden nothing. Common sense tells me that since nothing had changed, the WNV vaccine either affected the Studs or the mares....They are due in May for the shots...not a chance. We are having the studs tested to see if they have recouped...They and the mares have been on vitamin E therapy since December. Fly control is the answer...and the best first line defense for WNV. If you are in a mosquito area, I wouldn't want to make your decision for breeding stock. Any other stock should be OK
 

Sarah (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 152.163.100.13
Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 08:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe the modified live virus affects breeding, and the killed virus is ok. Just a thought.
 

TX Breeder (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 199.3.209.43
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 11:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do vaccinate at the suggested times, however, a client of mine does not believe in ANY vaccinations or wormers.

She has a 28 year old mare that has been hauled all over the U.S. without any disease or signs of worms. Her answer is a strong immune system and natural remedies. Garlic has done a great job for her with fly and mosquito control. I must say that it is effective. I feed her horse every day and include the recommended amount of garlic in her feed.

For those of you who are worried about the WNV shots, try garlic rather than going without any type of prevention.
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 64.136.49.226
Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 01:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

}
Hello Y'All, I have had in my small community 3 close friends who had given the West Nile Vacine within 30 days of foaling, all 3 lost their babies within a 2 day period all still born. I know the mosquitos are out very early this year but I still wait until all of my babies are on the ground before vacinating. My one friend gave hers on Monday evening and woke to a dead baby by tuesday morning. It makes my record keeping easier and accurate to give them all at the same time, and I want a full head count before I do so. I do not know of any myself that were lost in the early trimester. It just is not worth the risk to my babiesBest to all of you and your precious gifts from God. Blessing Your Day SPIRIT
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10120
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 09:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is not safe to assume a connection between the specific vaccine and the abortion. There are other reasons that the mares could have aborted. What did the autopsies show? Did they indicate a connection? If there were not autopsies performed, it is very misrepresentational to report the abortions as caused by the WNV vaccine.

There are a variety of other possibilities - EHV-1 or EVA are certainly possibilities, and the stress of receiving the vaccine (and any vaccine will stress the system) may have resulted in the abortion of already threatened pregnancies.

The flip side is that I personally know of 9 mares now that have died from WNV. Yes, it's stressful to lose a foal (assuming there is the unlikely chance of a connection), but it's a lot worse to lost the mare and the foal!

It also seems mighty strange that a peer-reviewed set of research recently released reviewing significant numbers of mares that had received the WNV vaccine showed no increase in abortion!

So - please anyone posting "connection" stories - make sure there is a connection confirmed by positive results in an autopsy!
 

Kim k
Yearling
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 81
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 09:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Everyone,
I just wanted to post my findings as they have been all positive. On our farm we make sure that we vacinate before breeding and after all our babies are born. It leaves only a small window for the wn vaccine but we have not lost a foal nor have we had any trouble with our breeding program. I lost a 2 year old filly-- a beautiful red dun overo to the west nile virus almost three years ago. It was one of the most hardest things to go through. We followed all the vets reccomendations and protocol and on day three the mare could not get up. To go out and find her not able to lift her head and to have those eyes look you in your eyes We thought that she had been making progress with the treatment and had good hopes for her. That following spring we vaccinated our breeding stock as we did not want to loose any mare or stallion. It was scary at first reading all the different opinions but in the end it was a big relief to have no problems as it was very hard loosing this 2 year old to the West nile virus.

Make your best decision and hope that you have choosen the correct one. Everyone has to live with their choice and once you loose a horse to this disease it is hard to go back. Loosing a foal or loosing a mare or stallion ???
 

KathyW (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 216.37.222.134
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 11:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi. I recently got a mare that had never had WNV. The people I bought her from did the normal 4-way and the first WNV. She came home in heat and my stallion got the job done. A month later she needed her WNV booster, plus she had not had Rhino, Rabies, or PHF so we did all that. She was checked at that time and was 4 weeks in foal. A month later she was no longer in foal and had a large folecule. Previous owners say that they never had trouble with her holding a pregnancy.

Questions:

1. Might the shots have caused her to absorb the foal?

2. Since she had a large folecule isn't she going to go into heat again? I recently heard that mares that lose a foal after day 34 sometimes don't go back into heat for 4 months. I've seen no signs of heat and that check was a week ago now.

3. If she has a large folecule might giving her a shot (I forget what it's called, but the one to make them ovulate) work, or not?

My other mare had her shots last year in April. We didn't want to vaccinate her in April this year because she wasn't due until July. She did however get a WNV. She also had the 5, 7 and 9 month Rhino shots. We just did the yearly shots at about 30 days before her projected foaling date. No problems with any of that.

Thanks for any input or ideas.
 

Tonya
Neonate
Username: Justme

Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 04:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just a comment to those concerned about vaccinating a pregnant mare with WNV vaccine. I personally would not vaccinate with this vaccine due to the widespread controversy of reported mishaps that have occurred to pregnant mares and full term foals. It hasnít been utilized long enough for Fort Dodge or any Vet to have enough solid research to say it does not have adverse affects on pregnancy. (This drug is to enhance immunity of the central nervous system folks; that might be a clue in regards to the development process of an unborn foal.) Fort Dodge nor any veterinarian is going to take responsibility for any unfortunate circumstance that has been reported by anyone regardless of exhaustive autopsy examination reports that come back negative towards this vaccine. I personally believe they are not even sure what theyíre looking for when these exams are performed due to the lack of documentation available regarding this disease in general. All Iím saying is itís a personal choice issue. If your mare is in good health and you have no worries, whatís the point in taking the risk with this vaccine? Not having it isnít going to be detrimental to her foaling or having a healthy foal. Farmers, ranchers and breeder 20 yrs and more ago had healthy mares and foals daily without the use of a lot of these vaccines that we now vaccinate for today. If you care for your horse properly on a day to day basis and are aware of their surrounding you really shouldnít worry, unless of course signs say something else. If you have no WN cases in your area, I donít believe its something to stress over if you havenít vaccinated for it. Besides there is no concrete proof that this vaccine will actually prevent your animal from getting it, research doesnít even have a cure for humans! You can always vaccinate for it at a later date if you believe you should. I grew up on a ranch basically on the back of a horse and I wouldnít do anything to jeopardize any of my animals! I have used the vaccination on horses and had no problems; yet donít have enough confidence in the drug to vaccinate a pregnant mare with it at any time! You have to do what you think is best! Educate yourself a little before taking someone elseís opinion!
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 111
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 05:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have to strongly disagree about this vaccine,.... I have had a two year old, in good health, in a area that has had minimal cases of the wnv, come down with the disease. I lost three years on a filly-- one year in foal, one year and year two of this fillys life. It may have been prevented by using the wnv. I made the choice as my post above stated to vacinate the rest of my herd(stallions and mares) and was able to settle each mare and deliver a healthy foal. Vaccinating for it at a later date may be too late as it was for me.By not vaccinating for it you may jeopardize your animals. We did not vaccinate during pregnancy, we did it the month prior to breeding. Please consider all things. It may end up saving your breeeding stock(Its hard to loose a baby, but to loose a mare that you depend on for that production of those babies)

Kim
 

Beverly Outlaw
Weanling
Username: Outlawpaints

Post Number: 22
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 05:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Kathy, Just my 2 cents worth.. i was always told NEVER do anything to vaccinate your mare even worming for the first 90 days.. If you must vaccinate, do it before she is bred or after she is at least 90 days or more along. Best time would be before she is bred because then she could get the shots she needs at 5,7, & 9 months. So sorry to hear this.. Breed her again but don't use anything for the first 90 days.
 

Cathy
Weanling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 27
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 07:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tonya you may want to look at the above post from Jos on March 29th about the study done by Texas A&M on WNV vaccine and the infuince it has on pregnant mares.
 

KathyW (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 216.37.222.134
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 07:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks. I'm a fairly new horse owner and depend on my vet to give me good advice. I had my older mare to New Bolton many times at the beginning checking stuff. She was on regumate because of fluid retention and because of her age and the possibility of lack of progesterone. It was a "best bet" kind of thing. Trying to prevent all possible problems. No worming, no vaccines, no nothing for 90 days. This mare was younger. My stallion is pastured with the mares. There is quite a bit of WNV in this area (one of my neighbors died from it last year). Since she had gotten the first shot and needed the booster for it to "take" we didn't even really think about it. I'm finding that much of my "normal" vet's practice is with Amish people, which don't usually do much with vaccinations at all, so I kind of have to ask questions about things more than them just giving me advice.

In this area there are many horses and many aren't vaccinated for anything, which you have no control over. And while horses lived for many years with out us helping them with anything, they live now in environments that contribute to some of the things we are now trying to protect them from. Those of us that vaccinate do everything to protect against the roaming bugs. Many even vaccinate for botulism because of various feed issues. I hadn't really thought about the fact that any mare is more suceptible to things in the first 90 days. I'm hoping it was early enough that she still comes back into heat this year.
 

janette doss (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 69.171.254.223
Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 12:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have to add that I had my mare ultrasounded, cultured and her uterus biopsied, looking for any sign of scarring, before breeding the second time and she checked out fine. This year, she was ultrasounded and cultured and checked out fine again.

Before breeding, I would always recommend an ultrasound and culture for infection.
 

Dave S. (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 12.150.19.66
Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 04:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

isn't it safe or better to say (point blank), don't vaccinate at all for anything during the first 90 days of pregenancy or the last 30 days also. come on folks this is basic breeder knowledge..adhere to it (just that simple).
 

Lisa Weir
Weanling
Username: Pals_pal

Post Number: 27
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 10:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It was my understanding that it's best to vaccinate for tetanus and strangles at approximately 30 days prior to foaling. We have always done this and have never had a problem with our mares foaling, that couldn't be attributed to something else.
I don't have an opinion on West Nile as it doesn't exist in Australia.....yet. Thank God!
 

Rooty (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 69.196.103.102
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 11:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I asked my vet, who is also a horse breeder, about the vaccinating in the last 30 days thing, and that is only so that the vaccines have time to work their way into the colostrum. The vaccines don't any harm to the foal if by chance you were a little late vaccinating and your mare foaled early. The first 60 days, well that's a different story.
 

laura hutchings
Neonate
Username: Queguapami

Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 05:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PREGNANT MARES, WEST NILE VACCINE, AND WEST NILE VIRUS DURING PREGNANCY.
I PURCHASED A TWO-YEAR-OLD ARAB FILLY WITH BOGUS VETERINARY RECORDS. THE PEOPLE WHO SOLD HER TO ME FAILED TO INFORM ME THAT SHE WAS IN FOAL. IN SEPT 2004 I DECIDED TO UPDATE HER SHOTS (INCLUDING WEST NILE) AND GET A PREGNANCY TEST DONE. THREE DAYS LATER SHE CAME DOWN WITH WEST NILE AND THE PREGNANCY TEST WAS POSITIVE.
SHE WAS GRAVELY ILL FOR 30 DAYS. I SPENT THE ENTIRE TIME IN HER STALL, HANDFEEDING HER, SPOONFEEDING HER WATER, SOOTHING HER, AND GIVING SHOTS. EVERYDAY I FOUND SOME BIG STRONG MEN TO HELP ME GET HER ON HER FEET FOR A FEW HOURS SO SHE COULD BREATH, BUT SHE'D GO DOWN AGAIN.
MY VET WAS THERE ALMOST EVERYDAY AND WOULDN'T GIVE UP. NEITHER WOULD I. HE SAID THAT THE VIRUS WOULD NOT PASS THRU THE UTERUS TO THE FOAL. HOWEVER THE SHOTS COULD CAUSE PREMATURE LABOR IN THE LAST MONTH.
IN OCT. MY MARE FOALED A BEAUTIFUL HEALTHY BUT TINY ARAB PINTO FILLY. BOTH ARE DOING GREAT AND MY MARE HAS REGAINED 100 % MOBILITY AND FUNCTION. SHE WAS SICK FOR 30 DAYS AND FROM WHAT I HEAR, THIS WAS CONSIDERED A MILD CASE COMPARED TO SOME.
I NAMED THE FOAL MIRACLE AND SHE IS NOW A HAPPY HEALTHY YEARLING.
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 64.254.97.10
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 03:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have read thru this message board trying to be neutral on the subject of West Nile Virus shots. I began giving my horses the shots in 2003 1 month before foaling and to one mare that was in the early stages of pregnancy....I had never had a problem with getting my mares in foal or with abortions...although I think it can happen ocassionally.The mare that was in in the early statesabsorbed her foal...I could not get my mares in foal 2004....Now these are mares that just look at a stud and they are in foal...I must have bred them 5 times during the season. All of a sudden their cycles were irregular and when I catch them, nothing would happen. I also noticed that the cycle did not produce much mucus during the breeding,,they were dry...After 8 months of no shots, I got one in foal, and the others not until 2005 (11months after the shots). Now you may not believe that the shots don't affect them, but ALL of my stock was affect.
 

Cathy
Weanling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 46
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you have ANY proof that the WNV vacccine caused you problems or are you just "assuming" it did?
 

Rooty (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 69.196.103.102
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 11:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And how early was the early stages? You shouldn't vaccinate for anything in the first 60 days anyway, and closer to 90.
We have been vaccinating for WNV for 3 years and have had no problems with fertility or abortion.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10318
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 02:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm sorry Anonymous, but I still don't see anything in your post that indicates a definitive link with the WNV vaccine. There are far too many other factors that could have resulted in the same response.
  • That fact that you have "never had a problem getting mares pregnant or with abortions" in itself lends emphasis to the fact that what you are now seeing is a statistical levelling and not related to the WNVV. Everyone that breeds, sooner or later has such problems. That you have not had a problem in the past means that you are now more likely to have a problem - which again is a normal breeding issue and not related to the WNVV.
  • The mare that "absorbed" during the early embryonic period - up to 40% of mares lose pregnancies during the early embryonic period - it's known as "early embryonic death" ("EED"). Again, what you saw was a common occurrence in breeding horses.
  • You indicate that these mares "look at the stud and they are in foal", or in other words they have all been bred before. The more you breed a mare, the more her uterus gets "worked" and is therefore less likely to be able to support future pregnancies. Think of it as a car tire - the more wear (mileage) there is, the less security you're going to get. If you're not driving the car a lot there will be more tread, so there will be a better traction, but there may also be "weather checking" which can increase the risk of a flat tire. The uterus is much the same in its response - if the mare is bred a lot, then the inside of the uterus will become worn. If she's not bred a lot but is older, there is the risk of other changes that will reduce fertility. In other words, these mares that have been easy to breed before will become more difficult to settle as they get older - and not as a result of the WNVV.
  • With the mares that were repeatedly bred, what diagnostic work did you have performed? Were they swabbed with a culture and cytology performed? Were they evaluated by ultrasound to make sure they were ovulating? Were they checked post breeding for fluid accumulation? When were they checked for pregnancy and by what means? There are far too many variables here to be able to conclusively take issue with the WNVV.
  • The mares that were having "irregular cycles" were determined as having them by what means? Teasing is not necessarily a reliable indicator with all mares.
  • The mares that "did not produce much mucus" during breeding are behaving perfectly normally - I don't want mucus during breeding!!! Again, not an indicator of a problem!!
  • And then there are many, many other management factors to consider - and we haven't even touched on the stallion! What does his semen look like when evaluated?
I'm sorry - as I said above in this post, there is no conclusive evidence of a link here. And on top of that, sound research performed by well-known research veterinarians and on multiple breeding farms has proven no link.

I would look for other issues to be addressed in your breeding program beyond a WNVV "link".

Good luck.



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