I want to do ET on a well bred WB filly that I have next year. Have spoken briefly to the vet who will be doing it & he has recommended I find 3 standard bred mares for receipt mares. The vet clinic does have a small receipt herd however I think they are mainly smaller mares- 15-16hh. My mare will mature to about 16.1-16.2hh & the stallion I want to use is 16.3-17hh. Do the receipt mares need to be pretty close to the same size of the donor mare? Would I need to get mares between 16-17hh or would a mare between 15-16h be of suitable size???
I have read a study somewhere where they implanted a large mares embryo into a pony receipt mare. Apparently the study determined that the size of the receipt mare didn't matter that much because the foal will only grow to a size that the mare's uterus allows. All the foals in the study apparently grew to the genetic size once born.
The general recommendation is to have recipient mare that are approximately the same size a the donor mare. Smaller will likely not be a problem, with research - as you cited - demonstrating that the mare's uterine size dictates foal size at foaling; but the earlier concept that a draught mare would be good "to give lots of room to grow" has been seen to be erroneous, as the volume of milk from such a mare is too great for a smaller sized foal to be able to drink enough to get adequate nutrition (the greater volume of milk is lower in nutrient quantity, and whereas a draught foal will drink adequate amounts to gain the nutrition, the smaller animal cannot drink enough).
Just because foal should only grow to a size that the mare's uterus allows, doe not always mean that is true. It is not with my stallion's foals if bred to mares under 15.1hh mares have issues at foaling time because of size of foal being born. My vet told me breeding to 16.1hh means mare really should be 15.2hh or taller.
So to be safe I would try for 15.3hh -16.1hh mare
(Message edited by mysteryarabpt on October 22, 2008)
I suspect that the issues you are seeing are related to width of hips, or width or depth of chest rather than height. Breeding a narrow[er] mare to a solid-bodied stock horse stallion (for example) may result in issues related to the diameter of the mare's pelvic opening compared to the mass (not height) of the resulting foal.
The size of the foal is therefore dictated by the mare's uterus, but not some of the specific mass parameters.
Anyone out there looking for mares to use for recipient mares I have a few we went out to find a herd of such mares and have 15 they are priced at $1500 all large young big bodied TB's all have had or are in foal now with their first foals a couple are recipients now carring foals for our mares. If interested please send and email I have one open mare now a great canidate for a large warmblood recipiet she is 16.2+ tall big bodied mare, excellent health and underlights will take $900 if we sell her before breeding season starts...in ocala fla.
Ok heres an answer to the question on receipt mares.. we had 4 receipt mare foals this year, one of the mares was a draft, huge foal out of big parents mare can be a pain to deal with,she is 17 hand belguim big even for that breed. Two where what we are guessing to be draft crosses one not even 15.2 the other maybe 16 hand, the foals where huge they stand 13.2 at three months of age the dam is 16.2 sire maybe 16.3 both boys breed from the same cycle.now the three above horse have had at least 1 other foal if not more the forth mare is a 16.3 hand TB small frame..first foal, foal is ok size when born but has developmental problems I am guess the mare was not the right size nd strong enough mare for these warmblood foals,,my observation is i would look for draft cross mares of any size that have carried at least one foal must watch the mares intake there milk is very rich and they don't require a lot of protein in there diet even while nursing
my observation is i would look for draft cross mares of any size that have carried at least one foal must watch the mares intake there milk is very rich and they don't require a lot of protein in there diet even while nursing
Please see my post above explaining that draught mare's milk is not "very rich", but rather the opposite - weaker in nutrition - and that smaller foals than a draught foal cannot eat adequate amounts of milk to gain the needed level of nutrition, and it is that which causes the DOD's - lack of nutrition, not to much!
It is therefore recommended that a recipient mare be about the same size as the donor mare.
We have a mare that was an embyo in 1998...one of the first. She is a Percheron who a put in to a quarter horse. I spoke with someone just today that confirmed that the fetus will grow according to uterus size but that feeding and genetics will etermine the ultimate size of the foal at adulthood.
Also Jos, I am curious, can you please point me to the resources about draft horse milk and also the fertility? (You said a few days ago that drafts have lower fertility rates and I have been unable to confirm that and a repro person that we have worked with says that she is unaware that is true. We got 3 out of 4 draft mares pregnant on foal heats...well above average for any breed on a foal heat so I am curious.) If there is literature realtive to these two things I would love to read it.
Hopefully you have received the reply from our office to the above questions that you had e-mailed to them. As noted by them in that response, I have been away lecturing all weekend. For the edification of others who may be similarly interested, I will repeat the response here. Apparently you were unsure of what "CSU" was - it is Colorado State University, a recognized leader in equine reproduction research. The issue with the lower nutritional value of draught horse milk is that the foals drink a lot more than do light horses and hence do not need as concentrated milk, gaining the same overall nutrients from the higher volume consumed. I am still on the road and do not have access to Journals for specific research citations, but hopefully this will assist you:
I believe that you will find that the research on the lower nutritional values in the milk was done by CSU in connection with recipient mares for ET and developmental problems experienced when draught mares were used for light horse embryos. You might also contact Don Kapper at Progressive Nutrition on that as I think he has referenced it as well.
The lower fertility can be confirmed by contacting your breed registry and asking for the number of breedings recorded on stallion reports vs live foals born/registered. Indeed, the registry may already have those figures calculated.
With all due respect to everyone, I have been thinking about quantifying fertility in the manner suggested, i.e., contacting the breed registry. I believe that this may be "junk science" in that it cannot account for the following:
1. A satllion owner submits his/her stallion report for the year. Say that it shows that the stallion serviced 10 mares.
2. Two mares get pregnant but slip the foals at some point in their pregnancy. (The ablity to get pregnant shows fertilty on the part of stallon and mare.)
3. Three mares have foals which the owners do not register, instead selling them as grade. (again, demonstrated fetility in both mares and stallions)
4. Three mares did not become pregnant. (Unclear if it was because of the stallion or mare, could be either or both)
So when you contact the breed registry, there was a stallion report filed stating 10 mares were served but only 2 mares had resuling progeny at the registry. The registry (at least ours) does no follow up with the owners of the mares who do not register progeny. Therefore, based upon the stallion report, the registry could say that the fertility of the stallion was only 20% based on the two registered foals that resulted from that stallion report. Obviously given that there were pregnant mares that had foals either die AFTER pregnancy or who were never registered, the evaluation of the stallion's fertility (or that even of the listed mares) is not correct. Hence, the data would be unrealiable if one were to depend upon the breed registry to ascertain the fertility of a stallion or mare based upon stallion reports or regstred progeny for a given mare. (I imagne that the stallion owner would be highly upset if this information were given regarding a stallion's fertility based up the example above, to an interested mare owner trying to decide on a stallion to use.)
Please feel free to point out if this logic is faulty on my part. Again, just trying to make sense of this and would love to read any studies that relied more on objetive data. If anyone is aware of that kind of study as opposed to generalities, I would love to see it. I would also love to know how other breeds track fertility in their breeds, since I am not confident about relying on a breed registry.
2. Two mares get pregnant but slip the foals at some point in their pregnancy. (The ablity to get pregnant shows fertilty on the part of stallon and mare.)
While the above demonstrates fertility on the part of the stallion, fertility on the part of the mare is defined as production of a live foal, hence your logic is faulted - it does not demonstrate fertility on the part of the mare.
Your calculations above in fact demonstrate 50% live foal rate - below the normal average.
Draught mares also have higher rate of dystocia - another fertility issue - and before you ask I do not have the specific research citation to back that up, but I am sure if you look for it you will find it.
Ok Joe, but still...and not trying to pick a fight.....I dispute your ascertation that the breed registry is the best place to get fertility rates, again because of what is posted in my example above. I know for a fact that our registry tracks not the variants between stalion reports and foal registrations and I, as a stllion owner would be HIGHLY upset if someone was advised to guage fertility of a horse this way and concluded, again, using the example above that the horse (or breed) had a lower fertility rate then was actually true. I would appreciate your thoughts on using the breed regsitry...if the example or knowing that at least one draft breed registry does not track such things.
Again, I have seen no studies that would indicate to me that draft horses have lower fertility...one article that claimed that they did but again no scientific study backing it up. I am just funny that way in that there are so many myths and rumors in teh horse business that I want science, if it exists.
And the draft mare milk studies...old. 25 years ago, draft milk was poor however in the last ten years or so it has improved dramaticly! If anyone is interested, here is information coming out of scientific studies at Ohio State and Michigan State as shared with me yesterday:
"The initial analysis work completed on Draft Mares, resulted in showing us the mineral density was lower then what we had on this chart for horses. Therefore, 25 years ago, I did make the comment that Draft Mares, in general, produced milk with a lower mineral density, but the foals made up for this by drinking more milk per day and actually increasing the grams of major minerals and milligrams of trace minerals consumed/day. In the past 10 years, we have continued analyzing milk from different breeds of horses. What we have found is - the mares diet, especially prenatally, has a direct affect on the quality of the milk she produces, including Draft Mares."
I then asked : "Can I take this to mean that in the recent past or ten years or so, draft horse mare milk nutrition has improved and therefore may not be as deficient as first suspected 25 years ago when initially studied?"
And the answer was: "Yes, the mares that are fed better today have better quality milk for their foals, are more consistent in their reproduction and maintain an over-all healthier status. Mares that are fed hay and oats are more apt too have foals with 'boggy hocks; born weak and down on their pasterns; show physitis while still nursing and have an ncreased incidence of acquired contracted tendons, etc;"
I then asked: "So having said all that....it seems, if I am not misunderstanding, and I could very well be, that it is an unfair blanket statement to say that all draft mares produce poor quality milk....as it is somewhat diet variant. Fair statement? And that, as food quality has improved, so has the milk as long as mares were well fed during pregnancy? Correct?"
And the answer to that was: "Yes, that would be a good summary. Because no one is breeding for milk production in mares today, we have lost a few lines of good milking mares that were not the most attractive or performed the best. The biggest variable on breeding farms today is the quality and quantity of mares milk."
Again, not meaning to pick on anyone here, it's just that having drafts I had never heard any of this and wanted to check it out.
The milk information is really interesting for all breeds and Dan is a great resource! I should also add that you an have your mares milk checked if you think that there is an issue which could be a great tool!
There was really a ton more about milk and pregnant mares that was so interesting and I would encourage everyone to look in to it! I cold not possible post it all here but if you contact Dan, I am sure that he will be happy to share his really vast knowledge. He is a really nice man.
Again, just wanted to share the infomation and, if anyone has scientific studies about draft fertility that have been done in the last 10 years, I would love to read them. Thanks!
Just to clarify, my name is "Jos" with an "s", as you can see on my name to the left.
If we agree that not all foals are registered and that one therefore has to question whether the resulting percentage is not absolutely representative of the true percentage of live foals produced, then we also have to agree that the same thing will apply to other breed registries not just the draught breeds. That therefore means that although the ultimate percentage presented may not be accurate (being lower than foals actually produced), the same will apply across the board and hence the differences (statistical variations) between the breeds will still apply (higher or lower fertility) regardless of final percentages. I suppose you might argue that draught horse breeders are worse than any other breed at registering their foals, but I really don't think that's true. I therefore still look forward to your presentation of comparisons of statistics you have gathered from a variety of breeds (probably 10 or more would have statistical merit).
You mention research on the milk front, but you don't cite it (i.e. author[s], title, name of publication and page reference). Please can you do that so we can all review it?
Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 10:12 am:
LOL! Well Diana, it seems I have touched a nerve with Jos....(Sorry Jos...my "e" and "s" are quite close on my keyboard and I was careless. I'll try and be better!) I did not mean to start a "fight" but when anyone starts talking about things as absolute, I always question where the info comes from...usually it is not a problem as most teachers can readily site sources. <shrug> Also, draft info peaks my interest so when I hear "new" information I want to check it out. Jos, don't be offended...I question everyone and everything, you are not being singled out!
As for the milk study, Jos, I did what you recommended and contacted your source, Don Kapper. A most helpful and nice gentlemen. The "converstation" I posted above was with him and is from the horses mouth so to speak. Jos cited CSU as the source for the study but actually it was Ohio State. The study that Don did was started in 1967 (as I said "old") and was continued thru 1974. Don also ultilized information from both Michigan State and Cornell. (Not sure where Jos got the idea that the study was CSU. If there is a similiar study out of CSU Jos, please let me know because I would love to read that as well!)
Again, as I posted, I was told by Dan (again Jos's "source" for his July 31 post where he states "Please see my post above explaining that draught mare's milk is not "very rich", but rather the opposite - weaker in nutrition -")the following as written to me by Dan: "Therefore, 25 years ago, I did make the comment that Draft Mares, in general, produced milk with a lower mineral density, but the foals made up for this by drinking more milk per day and actually increasing the grams of major minerals and milligrams of trace minerals consumed/day. In the past 10 years, we have continued analyzing milk from different breeds of horses. What we have found is - the mares diet, especially prenatally, has a direct affect on the quality of the milk she produces, including Draft Mares."
I then asked Dan the questions as posted above and got the answers...bottom line, really with the improved nutrition of the past several years, and better education as to the feeding of a draft horse, it is not true that all draft mares produce nutritionaly poor milk. Infact, given the nutrition of some light horses, they can be produccing milk that is deficient even if they are not drafts.
And since you asked Jos...that old study was at Ohio State (not CSU) and was by researchers Dr. Steve Reed, Dr. Larry Bramlage, Dr. Debra Knight, etc. You can probably find the info yourself given this information as can anyone else interested. <smile> I cannot take credit for finding this study as Don has been a huge help in making sense of all this. (And he is Jos's source after all!)
Again, not meaning to start any fights but given that there are so many myths and rumors in all areas of the horse business, I like to be current and to be abe to cite credible sources. I was not meaning to imply that Jos was wrong, although he is working off 25 yr old studies, and according to Don, that information really isn't so much true anymore for the reasons given.
I had never heard of the milk issue with drafts and thought, when I read what Jos wrote that it was interesting that it wasn't discussed within the breed as were it true, it would be of great interest and I am sure, great debate and disucssion. Again, the reason for all my questions is so that I could get information to help my own program. I am personally glad that Jos was able to give me a person as a resource in Don that cleared up this misunderstanding for me and who gave me a resource to evaluate mare milk production. I shared it here to first, clear up the misconception that draft mare milk is universally "poor", to possibly educate Jos, although not my initial intention, that his info was dated, and to let all of you know how interesting this milk discussion is for all horses and how it can impact positively and negatively, a horse, even one not use in an embryo transplant program.
Having said all that, I guess there is nothing more that can really be said by me. If anyone is interested in educating themselves, by all means, Jos has provided a great resource in Don Kapper and I would encourage reading what he has to say.
E-mail is so hard because you cannot take in to account inflection, tone etc. If anyone thought I was being argumentative, I apologize as that was not my intention. I have learned many wonderful things here..many from Jos and many from thr ehular posters and for that I am gratful. You are all a terrific bunch and Jos is patient. I do however believe that we can agree to disagree in a polite manner and, I for one am always open to learning new things and being willing, if shown a different way, to be open to that as well. I may also be a bit of a skeptic about information....I want you to show me and I can be stubborn (I still don't believe that breed registries....if run like ours, are the best place to guage a horse or an entire breeds fertility and will galdly read any scientific study that anyone wants to give me!) I guess when the teachers in my 3rd grade class said "show your work or fail", I just never got over that!" I need to be shown the work...my weakness.
If you made it this far, thanks! Hope that we all have learned something from this milk discussion!!!
Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 11:02 am:
Oh one last thing...Jos, bless your heart, I just noticed that you said "I therefore still look forward to your presentation of comparisons of statistics you have gathered from a variety of breeds (probably 10 or more would have statistical merit)."
I think you are confused. I have repeatedly asked YOU to provide statistical research about fertility. I believe I have politely asked several times. Other then to state repeatedly, that you think that registries are the one best place to gather that information (and I do believe that you are wrong), you have failed to provide that information or any study cites.
With all due respect I am not a scientist nor a researcher. I do not hold myself out as an expert in equine reproduction, in fact I am really a novice. This does not mean however that when something does not make sense, I do not question it.
You hold yourself out as an expert in equine repro. You therefore should be able to cite a source as seemingly simple as fertility rates in different breeds.
Bottom line JoS....either you can find a study or you can't. It's simple. I am open to seeing a study on draft fertility using scientific principles from a university either here or abroad.
I am going to take a break from the board....use my other repro resources and contacts for a bit. I wish you all the best with your breeding and foaling adventures! My mailbox is always open!
Posted on Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - 01:32 pm:
Wow, I am offended FOR you Jos.......so sorry!
Marilyn, sometimes it's nice to take a stand...good girl.
Ann, I would have loved to be a part of this conversation in more depth, but just couldn't find a way to stick my foot in the door, for fear of you SLAMMING it on me...there are other ways to go about getting information! Jos has been a *blessing* to me and many others on this board. No sense harshing out on him b/c he "can or cannot find information"...the internet is your oyster...get out there and find the information yourself instead of scrapping with someone else because they can't!!
Hey Laurie!!! Great to have you back!!! We're just getting rolling on foaling season!! Yay!! BRING IT ON!! LOL
Jan Owen Senior Stallion or Mare Username: 1frosty1
Post Number: 2630 Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, February 08, 2010 - 12:47 pm:
Laurie!!! How is Summer and Spring? Post pics please!
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