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How fast does the cervix tighten?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » General Mare Questions - Volume 3 » How fast does the cervix tighten? « Previous Next »


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hidden lake stable
Neonate
Username: Hiddenlakestable

Post Number: 10
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2011 - 11:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a mare who was bred last cycle. She came back in heat. I didn't have the vet to check her as "she is in heat" and the other mares aren't ready for preg checks yet. So, I decide to check her cervix before breeding.

We were going to breed last night on day four, but rain/bad weather hit, and I don't like to use my arena for breeding as he is in training as well.

So this morning bright and early on day 5 I checked her cervix so we could LC (she was inseminated last time). It is so tight there is no way I could even inseminate, let alone live cover.

This mare has always been an 8+ day mare. Last cycle she had a 50mm follicle at 11 am on day five, so I thought we were safe to breed this morning on this cycle's day 5. But what are the chances she ovulated and is that tight already? I am trying to schedule the vet for Monday and have 4 checked at the same time.
 

Kristen B.
Weanling
Username: Kristen_b

Post Number: 21
Registered: 06-2010
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2011 - 12:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The cervix is usually tight around 3.5 days post ovulation...some mares do show heat even though they are pregnant, rare, but it does happen!
 

hidden lake stable
Nursing Foal
Username: Hiddenlakestable

Post Number: 11
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2011 - 02:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

see, that is what I thought. I thought there is no way for the cervix to be this long, high and firm on day five.... I just don't know what to think. She is very receptive, has had a huge attitude change, but she has never shown heat in the past. my breeding guy (who collects my stud) said they start to close up imediately, but even so, that cervix was about as long as my fingers or a little longer, and very firm/tight. So it doesn't make sense to me. If she is out of heat tomorrow the tight cvervix will make more sense i guess, but if not I might be inclined to believe she is one of those rare mares this cycle. Of course I have another that is a Maiden that is thinking she likes the teaser stud, yet the teaser stud is NOT interested, so I am hopeful on her. Time for a vet call I guess. I was hoping to wait until I had 4-5 mares to preg check before I called him back out. man I need an ultrasound!
 

hidden lake stable
Nursing Foal
Username: Hiddenlakestable

Post Number: 12
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2011 - 02:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

let me clarify that. She has never shown heat while pregnant in the past.

I know it is possible to be preg and still show heat, and i have been hoping that was the case from the get go as she showed heat late, had a major mood change consistent with past pregnancies, and so on. She was inseminated on day 6 of her last heat at about 3 pm; she was then in heat on day 7 and +/- on day 8 (still winking and peeing, but wouldn't let mini stud mount her). So timing seemed right....

However, while I know showing heat while preg is possible, I always seem to think that (if that were the case) they would show heat but not be mount-able, as in if she were taken to the breeding shed she would need a twitch to be bred... This mare is not like that, she is in standing, peeing, squatting heat.... Time will tell, in the mean time I will stess out. I am very glad I didn't breed her without checking first.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3217
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2011 - 11:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Around 10% of pregnant mares will display estrus - including some to the point of allowing mounting and intromission (which can cause pregnancy loss - hence the importance of not relying solely on teasing for pregnancy detection).

Let us know! :-)
 

hidden lake stable
Nursing Foal
Username: Hiddenlakestable

Post Number: 14
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2011 - 10:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

scratching head. this mare is in full heat today as well. I thought maybe I missed her ovulation and her cervix tightened up already, but for as tight as it was I expected her to be out today (day 6).

I probably can't get the vet until wednesday at the earliest, so I will be torturing myself until then.

Maybe my mares are crazy this year? I have another on day 2 of heat/day 18 of cycle (maiden), and my teaser wants nothing to do with her. She isn't in "raging heat" but she certainly is interested in the teaser. He can't even go by a mare in heat's stall without screaming and hollering, she squirted a little right on his nose, and he doesn't care, he'd rather sniff her poop. (she was inseminated also.)

I think an ultrasound is the very next investment I make! I just can't take this! My vet doesn't like to drive this far, so he tries to lump me with others out this way, and that isn't easy when you need him "right now" lol.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3218
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2011 - 05:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Give us some duration in days from the last point of standing heat to now and some other duration in days - the above day times don't give us enough to go on e.g. "day 2 of heat/day 18 of cycle..." huh? :-) Day 18 of cycle starting when? "expected her to be out today (day 6)" day 6 of what? Seeing as you indicated in a prior post that she was not receptive, it can't be estrus!

The standard derivation is to consider the day of ovulation day 0. If you don't know exactly when the ovulation occurred, then you can use the last day of receptivity to the stallion as day 0 but you have to note that (seeing as ovulation was probably 24-48 hours prior to that).
 

hidden lake stable
Nursing Foal
Username: Hiddenlakestable

Post Number: 15
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2011 - 08:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok, yes, I made a typo that my 3rd post tried to clarify. "She has never been receptive to the stallion when she was pregnant on past years." (I count the whole cycle from the first day refusing the stud; then I count numbers of days in heat, I don't lump both together. so when I said day 2 of heat/ day 18 of cycle I meant she came in heat on day 16, we are now on day 18... And I started talking about two mares)

Mare 1 (original post is about this mare) teasing chart for this year is like this: last day of her transitional heat was March 28. She came into heat again on April 11 (day 14), she was ultrasounded on April 13 (day 16), 25mm follicle, no edema. US'd again April 15 (day 18), found 50mm follicle. Inseminated on April 16 (day 19). She showed heat on the 17th and 18th of April, although I had her as "+/-" on the 18th (April 18 is day 21). (I use "+/-" to mean she was peeing, and "in heat" but I wouldn't risk my stud to LC her)

On May 3rd (day 15), she came back in heat. We had planned to breed LC on May 6th (day 18) but we had a weather issue. Early morning on May 7 (day 19) we checked her Cervix as I had not had her vet checked. I found a tight long cervix, one that I would not have been able to get an insemination tube through it. Due to the tightness of her cervix I though I had missed her ovulation and that she would be "out" today. She is VERY in. My teaser pony was more interested than normal.

So, if we take her first day of not standing for the stud (April 19) as day 1, she came back in heat on May 3, day 15, had an extremely tight cervix on day 19, and is still showing heat today, day 20 of her cycle.

Any thoughts?

(the other mare who is a maiden and tends to squirt around aggressive horses even when she is not in heat, had a teasing chart of: Lut on April 9, in heat on April 12; Ultrasounded April 13 30mm follicle beginning of edema; ultrasounded April 15 (different vet but was supervising previous vet) 35mm follicle, gave hCG. April 16 inseminated. was still in heat on April 19 (stallion has good enough semen the guy that collects him thought we could go 72 hrs), so was inseminated again, was out of heat on April 22.

So with April 22 as day 1, she winked for the teaser on May 7th, day 16, but he showed no interest in her. Today she peed lightly but not as much as in past, teaser got some on his nose (he is a mini, she is 16h) but no "talking" or interest. He just kind of sniffs at her then wants to just stand there. normally if they are in heat he will try to mount, and I use that as a judge for how ready they really are. Today is day 17 for her, I am hoping to get the vet soon as I just can't take it, but it will depend on his schedule. I have thought about teasing this mare with the breeding stud, but I'd like to keep him as calm about mares as possible. His libido is such that he has an erection for anything on four legs less than five minutes after ejaculating for collection (and another stud on 4 legs is fine, so long as he can see him/her)

Was that more clear? I think we count the same way it is just that I am bad at explaining. :-)
 

hidden lake stable
Nursing Foal
Username: Hiddenlakestable

Post Number: 16
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 12:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ol, mare 1 is still in full standing heat today. Day 21 of her cycle; three days ago she had a tight tight cervix...?

Mare 2 (the maiden) is showing a stronger heat, and teaser mounted. For whatever reason I feel strongly this mare is not in foal, and needs re-bred. Will rebreed on her 4th day of heat, but check cervix first.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3220
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, May 09, 2011 - 09:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You need to get both mares ultrasounded to determine pregnancy status. Mare 1 sounds as though she could be pregnant, or has undergone EED and is delayed in return to estrus; Mare 2 sounds like a mare that doesn't particularly want to tease to a mini stallion.

Get 'em checked! :-)
 

hidden lake stable
Nursing Foal
Username: Hiddenlakestable

Post Number: 17
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 08:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thanks, I called my vet yesterday morning, still havent heard back... if there were another vet in the area I do believe I would use him... but sadly there isn't. He is affordable, and we seem to have a good realationship, but he just doesn't want to drive this far. I liked the young vet better, but they have him doing all small animal these days :-(

I'm stuck with checking cervixes until I can get him out here, and I don't want to miss her. The teaser was the one not interested in her, she was very interested in him... now he has decided she is in heat as well. So, all makes sense now.

Mare 1 was just a day late coming in, you think it could be EED? maybe I should check her cervix again.
 

hidden lake stable
Nursing Foal
Username: Hiddenlakestable

Post Number: 18
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 09:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok. I just got done teasing. Mare 1 is going out. I'd call her +/- pony did mount her but she kind of hopped when I pulled him off, and isn't peeing, just winking and carrying tail. Anyway. This I tuesday, even if she ovulated 48 hrs ago, that would have been Sunday morning. I checked her cervix sunday morning and it was tight. Unless it went from tight to loose between Sunday morning and now (and is tightening back up again I assume) then she wasn't in a true breedable heat...who knows what the reason is? Preg, spring weather, idk. Will find out though :-)
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 3222
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 08:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unfortunately, your methods are seriously flawed and likely not to prove completely reliable.
  • Not all mares have cervices that relax during estrus.
  • Not all mares will tease to all stallions.
  • Not all stallions will tease all mares.
  • Not all mares will tease to a miniature stallion.
You might be all right on a lot of mares, but you're not going to be all right on all of them - as I suspect you are now finding.

Good luck!!
 

hidden lake stable
Nursing Foal
Username: Hiddenlakestable

Post Number: 19
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 08:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Except, I have inseminated this mare for 3 years
(This being the third, and we have always caught with one dose, first cycle); she teased to this same stud for three years; and while she originally didn't care for the mini stud (as a lot of mares don't) she has not had trouble showing heat since. There are some things I do that are not "textbook" but I wouldn't say that about my teasing program. Aside from that, farms can't be text book; they have to do the best they can within the realities of their set up, budget, time constraints etc. I think it is a rather sweeping generalization to say my methods are "seriously flawed." The only thing I fault in my program is not having an easily accessible vet. Which I plan to rectify with the purchase of an ultrasound.

As soon as she is ultrasounded, we will know. But there is nothing more anyone who doesn't have ultrasound capabilities can do as the mare shows heat. Period, no matter what stud she is teased with.

Mare 2 is now showing a great heat; teaser is very interested (he is about 26, he's kind of smart, if they aren't "hot" he doesn't get stupid about them.) And she live covered last night with ease.

Mare one is the mare I posted the origional question about "mares showing heat while preg" because I could have swore she was in foal. Now she very well may not be, but I'm glad I didn't breed her. I called my vet monday, I've yet to hear back from him... And the new vet they hired decided to take a vacation right in the middle of breeding season, fantastic :-(
 

hidden lake stable
Weanling
Username: Hiddenlakestable

Post Number: 21
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Monday, May 16, 2011 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ok, Well here is the update:

mare one: not in foal. vet couldn't say why her cervix never loosened, he said she had recently ovulated. She had been out of heat for two days at that time.

Mare 2 was bred Tuesday night that week, vet was there Thursday and said she had ovulated, so timing looks good.

now here is the funny. He checked 5 mares that day. The two above were open, the other three in foal. However, one of the three in foal was supposed to just be a follicle check as she was in heat that morning and I assumed she did not take.

Mare 1 got a shot of lute today (day 6) as well as two other mares. And mare 2 has been out of heat for a day or two now, and awaiting preg check in 2 weeks with yet another mare. we'll see how it goes. This has been the "weirdest" breeding season I have ever managed. I'm not sure if it is due to the increase in numbers or this aweful weather time will tell!



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