I have a 2000 colt who will be a yearling in March. In a few months I will probably have to seperate him from his "birth herd" of broodmares and his best friend in the world, a 2000 filly. He is a stallion prospect, very well bred and the culmination of a lot of my breeding plans over the years, so I really don't want to geld him if I can avoid it. My dilemma is that I don't want him breeding the filly or other mares in the herd when they start cycling, but I do not have any other colts to turn him out with. I am absolutely committed to my babies having as much turn out (at least 12 hours a day) as possible, and to having pasture companions, so confining him to a stall is not an option. So I'm pondering pasturing possibilities.
The only other male horse on the farm is the colt's maternal grandfather, my old, established warmblood stallion. These two know each other, as they have shared a common fenceline for the colt's entire short life, and they basically ignore each other. So. Here's the question. Could these two possibly become pasture mates? Or is my older stallion likely to pummel the colt into the dirt? He is a nice stallion, easy to handle and work with, but the mares are his "herd" (even if he doesn't run with them in the same pasture - and to my knowledge, has never run with a herd since he's been a mature horse). I've posed this "grandpa-with-grandson" pasturing question to some other folks, and have gotten mixed advice about its safety. So I'm hoping to get some more input here.
Also, is it possible that the older, dominant stallion's very presence in the next pasture will have the effect of making the colt submissive so that he doesn't "wake up" sexually this year, similar to how it would be in a wild herd situation? If that scenario were likely, I could just leave him with his herd this year, and deal with the pasturing problem next year (when I may have colts from 2001 to pasture him with). Or does the natural dynamics of the herd require the stallion's presense WITHIN the herd to discourage the colts from expressing sexual interest?
Just a bunch of questions for you all; but I figured I'd start asking now, so I can figure out what I'm going to do before spring comes along. Thanks for all of your help, and Happy New Year!!
Jos
Posted on Friday, December 29, 2000 - 04:58 pm:
There really isn't a definitive answer to your first question I'm afraid! I know of several breeders who run stallions together successfully - even active breeding stallions! On the other hand, I know of situations where breeders have attempted this and the dominant stallion has put quite a dusting on the junior and they had to be separated. Essentially I believe it is going to be a "try it and see" situation for you. Even the size of pasture you attempt it in is questionable - a large pasture may enable the youngster to get away if there is a bad scene, but OTOH, he may just get run around a lot more and it will be more difficult to catch him up to rescue him.
The second part of your question is far easier to answer! If you keep the colt in with the mares, he is actually more likely to develop sexually a little faster, as "harem stallions" (which is what he essentially would be) have higher testosterone levels that "bachelor stallions" do. Dr. Sue McDonnell at UPa (New Bolton) did some fascinating research that established this fact.
Additionally I thought I might mention that puberty can occur at any point from 8 months on, so you probably should be enacting whatever plan you choose really soon! One point to ponder that might help: testosterone levels will be a little lower in the winter, so if you are going to try the two stallions together, it may well be better to do it now than in the spring when levels will be rising.
Good luck!
sid
Posted on Friday, December 29, 2000 - 05:46 pm:
Well drat! But thanks for the input. I guess I'm chicken to try to colt with the stallion. Although the baby is insured, I would never forgive myself if the stallion hurt him, or worse. I also don't want my poor old man running himself to death trying to beat up on the youngster. So I think I'll scrap that idea.
As far as the colt being out with the mares - well, they're all pregnant (except for the filly, of course), the first not being due until the end of April, so I have a LITTLE time there. Also, so far, this has not been a "studdy" colt - he never did much mounting of his mother or expressed a lot of other coltish behavior like that, so maybe he'll be OK for now.
You're right though, I'm going to have to come up with something - I may even resort to finding some cheap (read: free) gelding to be his companion. Well, I'll keep you posted - thanks very much for the quick input!
Jos
Posted on Friday, December 29, 2000 - 07:18 pm:
Those colts that are "far too young" and "not studdy at all" are always the ones that seem to end up in the same field as a pregnant yearling filly! J
Good luck!
Sonia
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2001 - 07:19 pm:
Why not add a round pen to the turn out plan? You could put it into the pasture and put the colt in there. Granted its not a supper big area but you can move it around as needed plus he will have his ladies nearby. The farm I work at we have 1-18 yr old stallion, a 6 year old stallion (both for live cover) a 3 year old, 2 two year olds and 2 yearlings. The 2 and 1 year olds run together but everything else is segregated. Trust me the 2 & 3 year olds know what is going on even if they dont "do it". One yearling also managed to tease some of the nearby yearling fillies into heat. I would remove your boy before its too late. Our farm had a yearling filly in the past who did get preg from an underage male and stayed pregnant even after the vet gave her a shot.
sid
Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 10:49 am:
Thanks for the idea; I have actually considered "modifying" the stallion's pasture to make it two seperate pastures (with temporary electric tape) and see how that works. But my current plan is to keep him with the pregnant mares - and when someone is in heat (like the filly or the mares before they're rebred), they will go in a seperate pasture...
What I have done for my 4-year-old stallion is that he has a pen along side my mares. There is about 4-5 feet apart in fencing. But for a compainion he has a goat. And with the goat he dosen't get upset when we go out for a ride. I don't like complete isolation from other horses and I don't pasture breed. I also have a friend who has a yearling stallion and his compionion is a bottle calf
Kelly
Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 01:02 pm:
I would not suggest trying to put the younger stallion in with the older stallion unless you have nerves of steel and insurance that pays off like a slot machine!
The older bred mares will be good for him. You could leave him with them quite successfully.
I may annoy you with this comment, but the fact is , you should have adaquate boarding facilities for all of your livestock. Until you have safe pasture conditions for your animals, do not breed them. Many disasterous injuries occur from senarios such as this. Your only alternative is to provide more well fenced pasture space for all concerned.
It is not a viable idea to wait until a mare is heat to move him. Move him now, or someone will suffer the consequences
sid
Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 08:53 am:
Thanks for your input Kelly. I agree totally that one should not breed horses if one is not prepared to deal with the ramifications. Just to clarify - this is a breeding farm, and was designed from the gound up as such. The fencing is very safe and adequate and was selected specifically with safety and management of mares and foals, youngstock, and stallions in mind. The problem is not the facilities so much as the fact that I don't have another young colt with which to turn the (now) yearling colt out. As I will sell weaninglings, it occassionally happens like this (all the colts were sold), so it just worked out that there are no other colts to be pasture buddies with this guy. I also normally geld colts before the become sexually "awake" - but in this case, this boy is a stallion prospect, so I don't want to geld him unless I absolutely need to. In my mind, turn out - the more the better - is absolutely imparetive, and I would rather geld this colt than restrict him to a stall. The question was who to turn him out with.
I decided some time ago that I am not even going to try the colt with the senior stallion; I simply am not willing to risk either one getting hurt. I have modified the pasturing arrangement; the colt is out with the pregnant mares and seems very content. And yes, Jos, he "woke up" sexually a couple of months ago - I wouldn't trust him with a mare in heat, as I think it would be very likely that we would figure out the birds and the bees.
Kelly
Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 01:36 pm:
At times we all find ourselves in situation such as this.
Either you have to isolate the young filly or the young colt, correct? I have found myself with this predicament before.
Is there anyone close by you that has a filly or gelding that may like the company of your filly?
I think that it is an excellent idea to keep the young colt with the bred mares. They will teach him some important manners. If, however, he becomes aggressive and runs the bred mares, I would suggest that you seek someone close by that has a young colt or older gelding that can dominate him. It will make him more responsive to trainig when that time comes. Conversely, if he is the one that is dominating, it will make training and handling more difficult.
I appreciate you dilemma and think that you have made a wise choice. Any dominating factor if it comes from a mare, gelding or other young stallion will keep him in check. All you need for a "natural dynamic" to occur is one other player for a pecking order. They will be dominate or subordinate, and that's all you need.
Have you considered just moving your filly and one older mare that she is attached to out "permanently"? I know that many young fillies don't exhibit "heat" until it's too late (e.g., she's bred before you know she was ready!) Sounds like a nice set-up you have, and I have to agree with those who tell you that the older mares will help educate your colt...Good Luck!
Sid (216.64.203.139)
Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2002 - 01:23 pm:
Thanks everyone for all of your input over the months and for being such a good, helpful, and supportive sounding board. I thought I'd just let you know that in September, I had this colt gelded. It was a difficult decision, but what it boiled down to was that - at this current time - I am not prepared to do what it takes to bring up another stallion. One is enough, at the moment!
Anyway, as the saying goes, a nice stallion will make a super nice gelding. All has gone well after the gelding, and the whole herd is happily back together again. And I plan on keeping this nice boy now as my riding horse, something I would have been unlikely to do if he were a stallion. So it all works out. Thanks again, everyone.
I have a mini stallion. My first. Recently I bought 2 miniature mares that are both bred and are very close friends. I put the stallion in a pasture along side the mares but I still feel that he is lonely. One mare really goes after him if he tries to check her out through the fence. My original thought was to put them all together because I figured the mares would keep him in line. The mares are a bit bigger than he is and actually now I wonder if the one mare is capable of hurting him? I am very new at all of this. One other thing, if they all do get along now,what happens when the mares foal? Will it be ok to leave him in with them? Please excuse my ignorance. I am just learning all of this. Thanks for any advice you can give me.
If your stallion is respectful of the fact that the mares are not in estrus ("heat") - because of course they are pregnant - then in all probability they will be OK together. On the other hand, if he attempts to tease and breed them, he is likely to get kicked or injured in some other way, and if he does manage to breed one of them, then an abortion is likely.
I would probably feel inclined to keep them separated if I were you...
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