I have a 6 yr old stallion that has never been bred before. I intend to give him a couple of experienced older mares for his first attempts. He does respond to a chain over his nose, though he can get a bit bull-headed. For my own safety in his first attempt at breeding, what do you more experienced folks think is the best method of control? I have previously only handled experienced stallions. I'm thinking 2 handlers- me the primary handler on his left with a chain through his mouth, and another handler with a long lead on his right to make sure he travels where I want him to. Any thoughts?
I would recommend working with the stallion on the ground prior to breeding with him to have him well-behaved and responsive prior to putting yourself in the breeding setting. If he has good basic manners, then one person leading him in a breeding situation should be ample. Having two people leading a stallion is - in my opinion - a potential recipe for disaster, as at any time one of those people are likely to be in a dangerous position that may not be visible to the person on the other side of the horse - with one person handing a horse, the horse can be turned away from the handler, but with one person each side, that turn will turn the horse towards the second handler.
While I appreciate the asking of the question here represents your attempting to gain knowledge before the fact, I would strongly recommend that you get someone to help you who knows what they are doing (and note that not all "stallion handlers" are created equal, so a good stallion handler is required to assist you) for the first few times. It is important that you understand that the first few sexual experiences for a stallion will set a pattern of behaviour that he will expect to follow for the rest of his breeding career unless retrained - and it is a lot easier to train correctly the first time than retrain later!!!
I totally agree with Jos. I also have to add that if the stallion handles well with a chain over his nose, I would not want to introduce a chain through his mouth for the first breeding as you may incounter problems due to the new situation with a chain through his mouth. I might also add , that if you use your stallion for riding, it may pose a problem for then bridleing him at a later time as he may associate something in his mouth to other situations , could be pain associated with the item in his mouth and will refuse a bit or could be that he them associates the mouth piece with breeding--pros and cons.
I can't stress ground manners and respect enough. The first breeding will set his mind for other incounters. Make sure you have his attention(as well as can be with his mind on love!) and the word no,back, stand or whatever other words you use with him to show him things are not allowed or are permitted. If you have these things in place already, it will make him following your direction much easier when it comes time for the mount. Learn to watch your stallions behavior and clues as to when he is ready to complete his job as well. Don't let him play games. You need his trust and he needs yours. A good working relationship is a positive and will make things a good experience for all.
FWIW, I almost always start with a chain in the stallion's mouth, but bear in mind that I am an experienced handler, so in the beginner situation, I do agree that it could lead to problems, but not necesarily for the reasons you suggest Kim...
I look at a chain as a bit like spurs - simply because they're there [in the mouth or on the boots] doesn't mean that you have to use them. But on the other hand, if you do need them, and they're not there, you won't have time to put them on!! (You can see my spur analogy - if they're hanging on the tack room wall, they're no use to you either!). When handling a stallion, the lead line should always be hanging loose (i.e. with a dip in it) between the handler and the stallion unless the handler is asking a stallion to do (or not do) something. Pulling on the line all the time is self-defeating as a stallion will end up ignoring it anyway.
I have never had a problem with a stallion not differentiating between a chain and a bit. I would suspect they are considerably different in texture, plus there are other indicators between the non-sexual and sexual situation, so the stallions I've worked with have been able to be both performance animals and breeding stallions with no confusion. The aspect of pain being related with something in the mouth brings me back to my comment above - one should not be using it with that intent, nor should it be used all the time.
Where I have seen a chain in the mouth become an issue is with someone who is not using it correctly - typically as a result of inexperience - and that would be a concern.
Note that there are stallions that will not tolerate a chain in the mouth, and that's fine too - I'll not make an issue of it if they are obviously unhappy with it, and will put it over the nose if needed. I do not like to see a chain under the chin - which I know is in conflict with many - but I feel that a stallion has a natural tendency to be "lighter in front" and putting a chain under the chin and then giving a snap if required will tend to elevate the front end, and I don't like to see my stallions' front ends elevated intentionally!!!
My point is I guess, I feel one should not rule out use of the chain in the mouth, as long as it is being used appropriately!
I certianly don't have a problem with your actions Jos, just wanted to explain what could happen. We have always been very successful with a chain over the nose. I guess if I were to have a stud not respecting just the chain over the nose I would consider the mouth. We have always had a very repectful horse, not allowed to mount before he was ready and allowed to , always knew ground commands and such. I too, don't really like the chain under the chin on most horses as it tends to do just as Jos said. Keeping front end at level is always a good idea ! One also has to look at thier horse and know how the horse behaves. If you know that your horse still does not listen with a chain over the nose, then consider other. But I would suggest useing the chain ahead of time, I guess is one of the issues that I was addressing, so you make him aware of the chain and how it will be used, not just throw the chain in his mouth for the first time and go at it. I am not suggesting to rule out this option, just consider your horse and the situation carefully.
If one routinely uses the chain in the mouth for breeding, and over the nose for leading and non-sexual situations, then maybe the stallion makes a more easily definable distinction between breeding and work and behaves accordingly (for example we will allow different behaviour in a breeding situation - vocalising and "strutting" for example - that is not allowed outside the breeding situation). If one uses the chain over the nose for breeding, and one finds one requires a little more control in a non-sexual situation and to achieve that places the chain over the horse's nose, does that then lead to the stallion "tuning" into sexual behaviour mode - albeit even slightly - in a perhaps already difficult to deal with situation (hence the initital need for more control)?
Stallions are of course all different, and one is undoubtedly dealing with different characters, so there is no "hard and fast rule", but I have certainly dealt with stallions that exhibit very different behaviour when the "sexual mode" tools are applied, such as the chain in the mouth. I do believe they make the connections in many cases.
No problem on the discussion of different methods! That's what good debate is all about!!!
I also want to add that we always use a lung line type lead, something that is a bit longer so that you can allow some distance from a dangerous situation if you need it yet still have ahold of the horse, again, it is one of those things that if you don't have it in your hand than you can't use it. And for some reason our one stallion always like to roll in our sand before breeding ! , he liked his back scratched!! One of those quercks
Good point on the difference of equiptment .I agree with it. We always use a different lead(lung line) for the breeding situation. The horse knows which lead is used for what. One is for work , one is for pleasure! As well as he also would know when what handler would do what with him. My husband always is the one to handle the stallion, and me the mares. I did more the actual work in the ring and round pen, bathing and grooming. So when he knew that my husband had him he too understood what was going to be happening as well as the area in the farm that we breed in and the routine that is set. The stallion has gone out of the barn first, to the location that we breed and then the mare follows, they tease over a secure wooden fence and sees how receptive the mare is and how interested the stallion is the mare joins the stallion and stallion handler. Mare is positioned close to the wooden fence(keeps her from loosing her footing as well)with mare handler still having ahold of the mares lead over the fence(keeping out of the way of the stallion and handler). Stallion does his job(in the ideal situation ) and then the stallion and handler back up , mare is taken out of the area and walked for a few minutes and stallion walked out the other direction to relax a bit before returning to the barn.
I guess what I was trying to say, animals are creatures of habit, and once a good routine is established they can count on it and behave accordingly. They are just like kids, love routine !
Good information for everyone, not all are alike and the more you can picks someone elses brain the more you learn. Someday I may need to recall someone elses experience. Kim
You guys have given me a bit to think about. I would love to find an experienced stallion handler to help with the first time or two, but I don't know any. Sure I know people that stand stallions, but we all know that's not the same thing!
This stallion of mine is quite well behaved on the ground, but my concern is that he might get out of hand the first time he is presented with a mare. BTW, I haven't teased anything with him yet, either. I don't want early foals so I don't intend to breed any mares for a month or so. In the past I have always left the stallion in the stall for teasing and teased over the door. Is there a teasing routine that might better prepare the two of us for a very controlled first breeding? I have an area about 50 x 100 that I could build a teasing rail or whatever in.
I don't have any issues with using a chain in his mouth because he is not broke to ride, though that will change as soon as I can find someone to break him here on the farm. I don't "do" first rides anymore!
I do have the option of turning him out with these two experienced older mares, but I'd prefer not to. I'm sure they'd teach him manners, but I'm afraid of injuries or some other disaster when I'm not home to supervise. And I'm not so sure those manners taught would carry over to a hand-breeding situation anyway.
Another question- anywhere I have ever been the mare is in the breeding area first,properly restrained, then the stud is brought out. What is your reasoning for having the stallion there first?
CMH, OUr reasoning for taking the stallion first, is he goes into the fenced wooden area, contained and not able to get to the mare, then the mare is taken to the stallion on the other side of the fence (yet contained in the adjoining secure wooden fenced lot). They are then teased over the fence , we don't ever tie a mare, the mare always has a handler and the stallion and handler are always safe away from the mare /handler. This way the mare handler never has to get in the way of the stallion / handler. After teasing(which sometimes also takes place in the barn with them in stalls right next to each other-just depends on how receptive both seem to be). The mare is then slipped into the lot with the stallion and s. handler through the gate, and just slid down the fence row with mare handler holding on to the lunge line over the fence. Stallion is then brought up to the mare and when business is done, the mare can be slipped back out the gate. It has worked for us for many years , this is the way that my mares were bred outside on a tb farm many years ago. WE try to create the least amount of safty hazards possible and feel by doing it this way less people are in the way. The mare handler never has to be in the same area as the stallion and s. handler. It just seems to work well for safty issues, Our first stallion was a youngster when we started our breeding program on the farm and we started a routine, he respected it and stood and waited for his mares. It was a issue that he was taught to be patient. I have seen too many stallions that are brought to the mares uncontrollabe and then just think that they get to behave wildly. Our gentlemen was taught that he could not do this. I guess maybe some have more control over themselves as well. Once the mare is in position than he is allowed to let the hormones roll ! But our breeding stock is also used for show, and riding and control of the situtions are a issue. When stallions are just used for breeding purposes, it seems that the farms I have been to the stallions are a bit louder, harder to handle. ?? As they have only been tought one thing--to bred.
So that is how its worked for us. We don't do things like everyone else, because its not always the safest, we also deal with angus cattle and cattle people do things a bit differently than "horse" people. Safty is our number one issue. Its not worth my life, or anyone elses just to bred a horse or cow. This does not mean that depending on the stallion I would not change anything. I hope that this makes sense. I will try to explain something if you have more questions.
Safty, we feel safe doing it in this manner, less conjestion, mare handler gets to stay on the opposite side of stallion/s. handler Our stallion was a big fellow too. Even though he was well behaved , when he when up on his hind legs he was big! This way of doing things also allows the wooden secure fence row to help keep the mare with good footing as sometimes with the stallions size and weight can push a mare during breeding. Depending on the mare and what she is comfortable with they will actually put their head over the fence row and the fence is then used to help keep the mare in one spot. When we have seen open breeding, the mare sometimes gets ran around a bit, and then once the stallion mounts , the mare will sometimes try to walk out from under him , the fence helps to prevent this, wether she is just in front of the fence or has her head over the fence row.
Interestingly, there is another reason why one may choose to take the mare to the stallion rather than the other way around. In the wild, it is the mare that initiates the sexual contact, not the stallion, so having the stallion already in the breeding location and introducing the mare to the stallion is a more natural method, and with some stallions that are slow to breed can actually result in a more rapid breeding process.
That is in the back of our reasoning as well, but safty is always of unmost importance. Maybe that too seems to be of a benifit for us in our situation, as everyone is a bit calmer and "naturally" doing what comes to them by nature, just with some human guidence. We always like to nature to help us in what we are doing and build on that .
I would like to thank Jos for the conversation. It is good that people can carry on a good converstion. I have been to a couple of boards and people just beat each other up and that is not good. I try to offer suggestions as to our experiences and what I have learned from others experiences. The more you know the better decisions you can make for yourself. If you learn from someones mistakes and experiences the longer you have lived. You have more knowledge than your years!
This is a very interesting thread. We always have the mare waiting to be teased and bring the stallion to her. But we have one boy who can be a little fussy. I think we may try bringin the mare to him if he plays that game in the next season.
UPDATE- I bred this horse for the first time yesterday to a very experienced older mare. I decided to breed in the barn aisle(sawdust over dirt floor) for a minimum of distractions. He was acting VERY strong, so I started with a lip chain (which I knew would eventually slip into his mouth, and it did). It took about a half hour and a couple of bobbles on his part(trying to breed the mares neck, LOL), but the mare was an angel and he eventually walked up and talked nice to her, worked her back end, mounted from the side and did the job. He backed off calmly, I told him he was a good boy and put him away. Hopefully I'm off to a good start...
Well, it sounds like you had a positive first date. Kim
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) and then the stallion and handler back up , mare is taken out of the area and walked for a few minutes and stallion walked out the other direction to relax a bit before returning to the barn. 
Once the mare is in position than he is allowed to let the hormones roll ! But our breeding stock is also used for show, and riding and control of the situtions are a issue. When stallions are just used for breeding purposes, it seems that the farms I have been to the stallions are a bit louder, harder to handle. ?? As they have only been tought one thing--to bred. 
