I breed sporthorses and am a firm believer in gelding . That said, last year I bred a colt who has turned out to be somewhat special.
To provide a bit of context as to why I think he's a bit special, here's his credentials to date: Breeding He is by a Double European Gold Medallist (& sire of an Olympic medallist) out of a Head Stud Book mare (and winning Sporthorse Broodmare). Performance Unable to believe I could breed a colt with stallion potential (because surely only great big studs with posh stables can do that ) I was encouraged by my (knowledgeable) friends to take him showing. As a foal he was Champion Foal at a major National Show... This year as a yearling he has won everything from Hunter classes to Riding Horse classes, showing the amount of versatility he has. I have also been told on more than one occasion by both judges and breeders, not to geld him. As I said at the beginning, I'm not writing this in anyway to seem like a brag, but merely to establish his credentials to date before a load of you tell me to geld him !
So, in theory I have a stallion prospect... I have my own mares and have already been approached by a number of other sporthorse breeders who wish to use him.
Here's the bit I need your help with! I am currently planning to send him to a stallion collection centre in May next year (when he's 2) to be trained to a dummy. He's always been colty and loves chatting up my mares over the fence with his 5th leg at the ready (although he doesn't try to get to them), so I think he's definately not gay and seems to have grasped the basic concept that girls are good . I will then do fresh AI's on my own mares and send chilled to the other breeders. I'm trying to seperate his breeding activities from his training activities by sending him away and using a dummy (also for his own safety).
My questions are as follows: 1. Do you think breeding using a dummy only helps them be more manageable around mares, or do you think live cover doesn't make them any worse? 2. Do you think 2 years old is old enough for this boy as he already seems quite up for the job already... I know of quite a few breeders who test breed at 2 without too many problems but I'd like to know your thoughts... 3. Do you think physically seperating his 2 jobs by sending him away will help him determine which behaviours are appropriate at different places..? 4. Have you any other advice for me that might help me ?
My boy has a superb temperament but the one thing does does get on my nerves a bit is that he does like to stand up on his backlegs. He NEVER comes at you or strikes at you, it's more a case of total exhuberence at how good he feels, but it is annoying. Have you any tips for me to try to get this out of him before it becomes a habit?
Saucy, It certainly sounds like you have an exceptional boy on your hands! Congrats on breeding him! I dont have answers to many of your questions, as i only do live cover, but one thing that i must say is that although your boy seems ready to breed, and has a good libido, he may infact not be mature enough to be fertile enough to settle your mares just yet. I am in the same boat at the moment, and had to turn to the alternative plan of sending mares to outside stallions this year until he matures. I really hope your boy can settle your mares for you this season, but just have it in the back of your mind that he may need a little more time, as i know i was dissapointed. Just be prepared. AND GOODLUCK!!! My fingers are crossed for you!
1. Do you think breeding using a dummy only helps them be more manageable around mares, or do you think live cover doesn't make them any worse?
While there is of course stallion variability, the general answer is "no difference" - assuming suitable good quality handling, which is probably the most significant portion of the answer.
2. Do you think 2 years old is old enough for this boy as he already seems quite up for the job already... I know of quite a few breeders who test breed at 2 without too many problems but I'd like to know your thoughts...
Again, there is stallion variability, but the general answer is "maybe"! Some stallions will be able to breed a few mares live cover with no problem, but others become stressed and in fact may refuse to ever breed again in the event that they are overbred. What is "overbred"? Watch you stallion closely and he will tell you! If you see the slightest hint of reluctance or boredom - stop! we will not work with a stallion younger than three for collection training and regular AI work - we find there is a better success and satisfaction rate for all concerned with horses 3 and up.
3. Do you think physically seperating his 2 jobs by sending him away will help him determine which behaviours are appropriate at different places..?
More important is the behaviour of the handlers and the equipment that is being used on the horse in the different situation. Stallions are not stupid - they will quickly realise that a certain bridle/bit combination means "breeding" while another means "work" (this of course is reliant on using a different type of bit!!) and then that indication is supported by the handlers who should permit "talking", "posing" and "strutting" in the sexual situation, but not in the work situation. Consistency of handling by the handlers is far more important in my opinion than the location, although the different location may help.
4. Have you any other advice for me that might help me ?
Watch your stallion's responses. He'll tell you a lot if you're willing to "listen"! And if you're not experienced in handling stallions find a good competent handler to work with the stallion (and you) to start with. Tullis Matson at Stallion AI Services is a quality handler in the UK if you are close to him (there may be others, but I am familiar with Tullis).
Thank you so much for your replies and your very kind comments about my boy.
It's Tullis that I'm going to send him to. I trained with Tullis when I qualified to be an AI Technicial so I know his setup and am happy to send my boy to him. They do so much of it that they really know what they're doing.
I guess it's pretty much as I thought - wait and see... I will send him and 2 of my mares to Tullis probably at the end of May and just see how it goes. If he trains OK and the semen is OK (luckily he comes from pretty fertile stock - his father was 26 when he was conceived!) I will get Tullis to do fresh AI's on my 2 mares and see if he can get them in foal. If that's OK then I'll ship some to a third mare of mine to test how well it chills and travels. If that's OK then I'll let the couple of people who've asked to use him, have a go.
As you quite rightly said, I am acutely aware of not over using him, but on the other hand I'd love to get 4-6 foals on the ground to assess what he produces across a range of mares. Ultimately if he doesn't produce the stock I will get him gelded because he has a career in eventing waiting and if he's not a good producer, he will be better off eventing as a gelding. (ouch)
As always I'll use my judgement and Tullis's advice on what's right for him. If it's not working out we'll give him more time and not put him under pressure - he's worth waiting for...
I noticed on another post that people advocate backing them before using them. If I were to do this he'd need backing in April/May - do you think that early in his 2 yr old year is too early to get him sat on?... and do you think it would help..?
The number of mares you are suggesting (~4-6) is probably workable - especially if you were to synchronize the mares and split the ejaculate between 2 or more of them (which will of course reduce the number of collections required).
I have never particularly seen a difference in backing time. Good handling is good handling, and if it's done before or after backing, it will still be good and the horse will respond appropriately. In North America the general philosophy is to back horses earlier than in the UK, and it is not uncommon to see 2 year-olds started, which is something I am not particulalry comfortable with. I would sooner see them being bred a few times at 2 than ridden, as I think you will see more lameness issues than behaviour issues as a result across the board.
Anonymous
Posted From: 66.38.167.176
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 01:13 pm:
I had a draft colt out with three of my mares. He bred them when he was a year and a half in the field. He was 16.2hh at the time and the mares were bred 2 weeks apart and the third was bred 1 month afterwards. Is this horrible for him to have done that, is there any way it can affect him? He is a very calm boy and leads away from the herd no problem. He behaves quite well with humans and the mares made him keep his manners. Am I a horrible horse owner if I allowed him to breed so early?
Saucy, if you plan to show him in the future, you may want to practice taking him other places as well so he doesn't associate going new places all the time with breeding. My very quiet, easy going, stallion was often shipped to a breeding centre for collection and now he assumes that whenever he goes somewhere he is breeding. It is going to take many trips to get that out of his head.
Anonymous
Posted From: 66.38.167.176
Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 09:26 am:
Emma, yes he managed to get all three of them in foal on the first try. Will there be any problems with the foals if he was so young?
No there should not be any trouble with the foals because of his age at the time of breeding
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. That said, last year I bred a colt who has turned out to be somewhat special. 
) I was encouraged by my (knowledgeable) friends to take him showing. As a foal he was Champion Foal at a major National Show... This year as a yearling he has won everything from Hunter classes to Riding Horse classes, showing the amount of versatility he has. I have also been told on more than one occasion by both judges and breeders, not to geld him. As I said at the beginning, I'm not writing this in anyway to seem like a brag, but merely to establish his credentials to date before a load of you tell me to geld him ! 
I am currently planning to send him to a stallion collection centre in May next year (when he's 2) to be trained to a dummy. He's always been colty and loves chatting up my mares over the fence with his 5th leg at the ready (although he doesn't try to get to them), so I think he's definately not gay and seems to have grasped the basic concept that girls are good 
. I will then do fresh AI's on my own mares and send chilled to the other breeders. I'm trying to seperate his breeding activities from his training activities by sending him away and using a dummy (also for his own safety). 
