I'm interested in breeding my young stallion but it will be his first time. I thought of pasture breeding but have decided that might not be too safe. Also, is breeding at 1 year too young? He is fully developed in the genital area and has tried mounting geldings that he lived with previously. He seems ready to breed and I would like to breed him to a local friends mare before gelding him.
TX Breeder Posted From: 199.3.209.170
Posted on Sunday, March 20, 2005 - 09:12 pm:
If you intend on gelding him, then I suggest that you do not breed him. Geld him now, and you will have a larger, better minded horse. Once he is bred, he will know what he is missing!!
If you are set on breeding him, one year is too young. The longer you wait, the harder the entire training process will be on you both. He will change dramatically in the next year and a half. Do not be fooled, gelding him now will be your best shot at a mannered and well adjusted gelding.
Thanks, but if I decide to not geld him then what would be the best way of breeding: pasture, live cover, AI, etc... Thank You
Eagle View Arabians Posted From: 205.188.116.65
Posted on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 09:36 pm:
Crystal, there are pros and cons for all ways of breeding. As TX Breeder stated, a yearling is way to young to breed. I personally wait until my horses are under saddle which is around 3 yrs but I do know many breeders that start at 2. At a year he is not ready to mentally handle this, he may be physically able but you may be creating a monster if you start now. I don't mean to sound harsh but if you want him to be a well mannered horse (stallion or gelding) please wait.
TX Breeder Posted From: 199.3.209.64
Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 12:23 pm:
Semen count in a yearling may be substancially lower than in a mature colt of 2 to 3 years. There are article about this on this site. Have a look and decide for yourself if the gamble is worth it.
Now as for which way is best, it would depend on the experience of the handler and of the mare being bred. Both are important. More information is needed.
Sandy Posted From: 4.228.252.252
Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 10:57 am:
I let my colt breed for the first time at the age of 2. I took one of my well seasoned breeding mares and put her and the colt into a large corral together and let her teach him what to do. Now, she did not get in foal on that cycle. The next mare that came into heat I had him cover her with me holding him in hand, and he did quite well, because he knew what was expected of him by the mare. It took two different heat cycles to finally get her settled. When I spoke with my vet about this he told me that a 2 year old colt can be sub-fertile. Meaning it could take him several tries to actually get a mare in foal. So, as a yearling, I would imagine the chances of the colt actually settling a mare will be much lower. Also, as other folks here have stated, it really does change them mentally. That is why I only let my 2 year old breed one mare and then after that he was in strict saddle training and showing. He is a 3 year old this year and I am still limiting the amount of mares that he will breed. The maximum I am letting him breed this year is 5.
The mare I would be breeding him to is a very calm, submssive mare who will stand patiently for hours on end. The handler(s) are quite experienced. Thank You
Anonymous Posted From: 12.96.250.250
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 01:21 pm:
Hi Crystal, From the vets that we use , a yearling is much to you to use for breeding. I will give you a good example. I was running a yearling colt with 4 open mares last year and not a single one is breed. Now he did do a good job at telling us who was in season and who not. Now take him as a two year old in the right hands and do some hand breeding and things would be successful. It is also true that if you are going to geld him that it is best to do it younger as he will get the most potential growth as a gelding , as much as two inches in heighth, due to the energy and hormones being redirected. And it is always a very big chance you take at gelding a stallion after he has been put into service. If the ducts don't get cleaned out properly after using him for breeding during the surgury, there is a very good chance of infection and many problems after that. There is a good chance that he will not loose is stallion attrubuites after gelding him as well--- alot of gelded stallions are still loud, and on alert to a mare in season Best of luck with your decision
Thank you. I was interested in what effects that breeding would have on the castrating procedure.
kimk Posted From: 12.96.250.250
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 03:12 pm:
your very wecome , seeing that you are interested in the gelding procedure after servicing him i must tell you a story. I had a friend of mine that had a nice looking toby stallion. He was 3 and they used him 3 maybe 4 times and decided to geld him as his behavior traits got worse. It was a big clinic that they used for vet service in holland Mi. We they did the gelding and within i believe three days there was a mighty infection set in. They treated it. The poor boy got sicker and then ran fevers and foundered. From the foundering he never improved. He was a 16 hand horse, spent the majority of time down in his stall.He had lost a ton of weight, gotton many bed sores. Finally the fever in his front feet got so bad , that he lost the shell of his hoof and had to be put down on the spot. All from a infection in one of the ducts that did not get cleaned out enough. It was a sad sight. After that i vowed that i would keep my stallion a stud even if there were a point in time that i would be done breeding. I would not want to take this chance. I don't know the risks of this and what the percentage is of this happening, but was not for me.
That's really interesting yet it is very sad. My stallion has a good attitude now and is very curious although he is still a baby but he isn't surrounded by many other horses so I don't think he'll ever really get out of control like some stallions do so maybe I won't geld him.
TX Breeder Posted From: 199.3.209.60
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 05:51 pm:
Please do not let that story sway you from gelding your horse. I have gelded so many, I have lost count over the years. Your horse will have a better chance at living a productive life as a gelding.
I always consider what would happen if I HAD to sell my horse. A gelding stands a much better chance of getting a good home and being taken care of well. Not many people would want a stallion that was not for breeding purposes.
Geldings are welcomed everywhere. Childern can own and ride them. They can be counted on in more situations.
I have NEVER had an experience like that of kimk. I would suspect an invironment that was not sterile as the problem.. not the gelding process. As you know, even a hangnail can get infected,that does not mean that you should not clip your fingernails.
Really, there should not be any problem if the proceedure is done by a competent vet with sterile proceedure. If you wait until this horse is much older (3-4) and have been breeding him it may be harder to get the learned behavior under control. Your stallion is sweet now, but give him a few years, breeding or contact with other mares and stallions and stand back and watch. He will change, especially if you do not have experience with handling many stallions.
Again, do not let that story sway you, I have NEVER had anything close to that happen, nor have I ever heard of anything close to that happening to any horse being gelded.
Infection can happen anytime that you have an invasive proceedure, proper manangement and precaution should always be taken.
kimk Posted From: 12.96.250.250
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 07:38 pm:
Dear txbreeder, Don't tell someone on what type of situation that was probally present. It was a clean and sterle situation. These hosres didn't even know what their own manure was. The didn't know what a mud puddle was. These horses were spotless. It was a plan and simple fault of the vet. The vet clinic was a good clinic and well known to those in the hollland mi area. It was not a unsterle situation , it was the gelding process. The ducts were not cleaned out enough of the semien that was left in there from the previous breeding. Semien rots just like any other body fluid.
I don't disageee that placing a gelding is easier than a stallion, I don't agrue with you that a child should not handle a stallion. A gelding should live a productive life, but geld him before you use him, don't let him get the taste of it and then expect him to forget about it either. A colt will get the most growth potential by gelding him now and now using him once and gelding him. I agree that any infection can happen even with clipping your finger nails, but this was a scarey thing and very hard to see this horse go through. You were not present to see it, dont tell others that there was poor manangement.
I am a type of person not to judge others, I listen and learn alot from many in the horse industry and that is the way i learn. You can't learn from someones elses misfortunes or accomplishments if you don't have a open mind and aren't willing to listen.
This person that was asking questions needs to know what all possibilities are including the risk of infection after servicing him first. and then they can make their informed discisions.
TX Breeder Posted From: 199.3.209.60
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 07:59 pm:
I was not judging, so sorry to make you uncomfortable.
However, I have to say that your friends experience was not at all the typical. I do not feel that any person should make a gelding decision based on this incidence.
I agree that one should know the possibilities, but once again, any problem is possible, not probable. One must made a decision based on the averages. Gelding a stallion on the average is NOT life threatening.
If I accept the explanation as is, I must conclude; rotting semen = unsterile situation in this invasive proceedure. Sorry, I must stand on my original posting, she should NOT fear the gelding process because of this story.
Please do not judge me as close minded and unwilling to listen. I have good reason to speak out on this tread. This is absolutely not a viable reason to maintain a stallion....out of fear of the gelding process.I stand firm on this statement and hope that you understand that it is not directed at you in any way.
Jos Posted From: 209.86.99.82
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 09:15 pm:
There are some important points regarding the previous couple of posts that should be clarified and considered:
Horse manure contains E-coli; shavings or sawdust contains Klebsiella spp.; and water - even distilled water - can contain Pseudomonas spp., so environmental pathogens should be considered to be present just about everywhere, and most decidedly in a barn - no matter how clean it may appear to be!
One does not "clean out ducts" during a castration (as in the observation "ducts were not cleaned out enough of the semien that was left in there from the previous breeding); and even if one did, there would not be "semen left in there from a previous breeding". Semen consists of several fractions - primarily sperm and secondary sex gland secretions such as seminal plasma. Sperm are produced in the testes (which are removed during castration), and stored in the epididymis (which is also removed during castration), but seminal plasma originates from the secondary sex glands, which are not removed or "cleaned out" during the castration process.
A body fluid (including semen) is sterile when inside the body until a pathogen is introduced from somewhere. That pathogen would therefore have to originate from outside the animal, or the animal already have a systemic pathogen present. Semen would not "rot" without the presence of such a pathogen.
Semen would not be left over from a previous breeding as:
In a healthy stallion, sperm that are no longer viable are shed by the billion in the urine daily;
Seminal plasma (the other portion of the ejaculate) is not secreted until ejaculation occurs
From the above, hopefully everyone can appreciate that the problem will almost certainly have occured as a result of an external pathogen gaining access during or after the surgical procedure, and the possibility of that pathogen having been encountered in the barn is extremely high.
I do agree with kimk that it is important that people should be aware of all possible sequela to any surgical procedure, including castration. I also however agree with TX Breeder that a negative outcome to a castration such as has been described is rare, and should not be considered a reason not to castrate.
Eagle View Arabians Posted From: 64.12.116.13
Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 10:34 pm:
Crystal, you mentioned that your colt is not around that many other horses so he shouldn't get out of control like other stallions. That may be true at your place but what if you ever take him somewhere else? The only reason that I'm mentioning this is that I personally have a stallion that is extremely mellow and easy to handle at home but when I took him to a friend's place he didn't pay as much attention to me as normal. He still was a pretty good boy but the stallion in him came out!!! She has mirrors in her arena and Mr. Stud Boy thought the "other" horse was hot stuff. He proceeded to drop and talk to the mirror, I had to work at gaining his attention. My point is, I'm sure you will take your colt at some point in his life to a different location and the stallion behaviour will come out. Just something else to think about.
Thank you. Actually where I would be breeding him, there are about 20 horses within a mile.
Where he lived with his mother there were about 5 other horses although he was kept alone in a muddy corral with the only interaction being a touch on the nose through the corral panel.
Maybe that's a hint to me that I didn't see before..? Again, thank you for all your information.
Especially appreciated the information from JOS. That was really interesting to me and probably everybody else.
Mr. Stud Boy must have been pretty cute for him to start talking to himself. What were the mirrors for?
kimk Posted From: 12.96.250.250
Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 10:18 am:
I just fell i needed to add , that I don't know the exact procedure for casteration, I leave that up to the vets!. I do know what the vets told my friends when this happened to thier stallion. It was confirmed by more that one reliable vet. What they were told it that the ducts were not cleaned as good as they should have been and this is where the problem started at. I do feel that all has to be considered when looking at a surgury. Even the most uncommon. And all odds must be looked at to make your decision. If one is comfortable with the odds of something that might go wrong then that is a ok decision to live with. Today i made the decision not to have my 10 month old cats liver and kindneys checked for proper function before going to be declawed and spayed. I was ok with it. They ask if you want to, to make sure they can correctly filter out the anastheisa--cost another 30.00 for the test. I will not make a decision to casterate my stallions that have been servicing after i am done in the breeding business. I will more than likely choose to let them continue to live just as they have--intact. My long standing service animals will have a place on the farm intil it is time to go to a better place. My stallions are well behaved and know what proper behavior is. Jos, your information may be correct , But I do know what the vet told them. I am also completley aware that any "sterle" place is not sterle. There are many things that could affect the healing process of any surgical procedure, especially in livestock and the surroundings they live in. I guess that is why there are some many human cases of infection coming out of a hospital . I also must note that there can be a small amount of left over semen. Even in humans. and infection can set in. Known for fact and experience.
Jos Posted From: 209.86.104.90
Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 11:52 am:
"I also must note that there can be a small amount of left over semen. Even in humans. and infection can set in. Known for fact and experience."
I would be interested in your research citations for this observation relative to the semen being the cause for the infection.
While castration may result in sperm remaining in the vas deferens and other portions of the reproductive tract for a short period of time after the surgery, as noted above, the sperm themselves are sterile and infection must originate from another source. It is not the sperm (note the difference between "sperm" and "semen" - sperm are a portion of the semen and originate in the testes, whereas semen includes other portions of the ejaculate such as seminal plasma which originates in the secondary sex glands which are not removed during the castration procedure) that will "rot" or be responsible for infection. Degredation of tissue in that manner results from the presence of a pathogen, not sperm.
And we have to remember that sometimes what a vet tells a client can be misinterpreted and the relaying of the information subject to the clinets own interpretation
TX Breeder Posted From: 199.3.209.147
Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 12:19 pm:
It is a fact that some vets are not always forthcoming with the facts. Some clients are not knowledgeable and therefore do not understand the explainations. My point being, these things can be researched and probable outcomes can be made.
Any time that the soft tissue is opened, there is a possibility for infection. We do our best and keep our fingers crossed.
Eagle View Arabians Posted From: 64.12.116.13
Posted on Friday, March 25, 2005 - 08:49 pm:
Crystal, we ride dressage and the mirrors are for helping you keep a correct position and can also help you "see" what your horse is doing under saddle, it's a helpful tool but not neccessary .
I have to make a comment, as a nurse, when doing any procedure we always are sterile as possible but as TX Breeder stated, any time tissue is opened there is a possibility of infection. I don't work for a vet so I don't know what standard procedure is for a castrastion but I do know that a lot of the time we will give antibiotics to the patient to help prevent infection BUT medicine is not perfect and things always can happen. Gelding a horse is not that risky and I definitely would not take one story and let it scare you. You could probably find at least one scary story for everything out there!
So they say! Thank you everybody for your information. It's all very helpful. I'm not about to let some scary story scare me off although i am thankful that is was provided since it will make me more aware of the situation and the rare possibilities.
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Now take him as a two year old in the right hands and do some hand breeding and things would be successful. It is also true that if you are going to geld him that it is best to do it younger as he will get the most potential growth as a gelding , as much as two inches in heighth, due to the energy and hormones being redirected. And it is always a very big chance you take at gelding a stallion after he has been put into service. If the ducts don't get cleaned out properly after using him for breeding during the surgury, there is a very good chance of infection and many problems after that. There is a good chance that he will not loose is stallion attrubuites after gelding him as well--- alot of gelded stallions are still loud, and on alert to a mare in season 
