Hi I have a soon to be two year old Arabian Colt who I may breed to a very few mares next year. I have had horses for 22 years now but he is my first stallion. I have a friend who is experienced in handling to breed who is going to help me with him at first but I have some questions I'd like to post to the board.
What kind of pre-breeding education does he need. He has been turned out with up to 8 geldings and socialized that way. I had him over by one of my mares the other day, he wanted to see her (not studdy just interestd) she wanted to eat him! Was very ugly to him coming over the fence ears back showing teeth etc. really scarred him he went to the other side of the asile and stayed there. Is it ok for him to see and be around mares prior to breeding? What should he be allowed to do? Smell etc? I can cross tie him by other horses and he isn't studdy and I excercise him by lunging him when there are lots of horses around. I just wonder what I need to do prior to the big event so it's easy for all but I don't want to frustrate him ither.
He is very nice but does know what he's for. He was turned out with a gelding last fall on the other side of the gelding's pen there was a mare in heat (I did not turn him out this way he lives at a stable) well he went over to the fence dropped and was really get hot an heavy with her before he got caught. I do know behavior can and probably will change to some degree.
We have a very experienced mare for his first but then I have two maidens to breed. And would like some advice on that too. Some say thats fine some think he shouldn't be breeding maidens his first year, my mare that I'd like to breed to him has had a foal but was bred via AI I plan to live cover as I'm trying to decrease the need for a vet. I want to try ground collecting him at some time but I don't know how to inseminate my mare so would still have to have the vet and my vet seems to think that the phantom is the only way to go. Good for him but he doesn't have to come up with $150 + per collection. I don't have my own place or I would try pasture breeding him.
I am also looking for ideas about what he should wear when breeding. The people I bought him from use an okinawa war bridle on their stallions when breeding and like everything else with horse everyone has somekind of oppinion on everything. My ferrier suggested using a knotted rope halter on him at first. He is VERY respectful of it so maybe it would work. I've seen people handle breeding stallions with a chain in various places is that confusing to them when they are doing something other than breeding that needs a chain? I lunge all my horses with a chain wrapped around their nose so they don't get the idea to just run off.
He is 15 hands now and quite will endowed in the testicle department not that that is everything but I suspect it should be better than not having much. He will be 2 in February and would not be breeding until late March or so as it's cold here in the winters and I hate the thought of babies born to life just in a stall with it too cold to go out with mom.
Sorry to be long winded but the people on these boards seem to have a lot of experience and offer some good advice.
Tracy (198.81.26.134)
Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 08:35 pm:
Are you planning on riding him? I know everyone has a different opinion but I was advised to train my stallion under saddle first before breeding him, (I'm also planning on showing him). The few people I have worked with have always handled their studs with just a basic halter and lead rope but when breeding switched the halter and used a chain. This has worked with not only an Arabian but also a 16.3 hand Hanovarian. I am also interested in what other people have to say since I have an Arabian colt myself and you can never know too much!
D-R (209.74.220.102)
Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 06:32 am:
Hi. I agree with Tracy, regarding riding. I would train them if at all possible before breeding them. I have a sweet stallion that was handled and rode long before breeding and he is a pleasure to work with. I do show and have had no problem with mixed sex classes. I attribute that to the early handling and riding he recieved. I did make the mistake once of riding after breeding and that was a waste of time. He obviously still had his mind somewhere else.
Regarding breeding, I handle him with a lip chain and an additional chain. He is inexperienced and still learning, but I don't put up with any nonsense. I do not allow charging or rearing and if he is too excited, I have taken the time to lunge him out a bit. Any time that he starts to charge, I turn him away and make him circle at least once.
When not breeding, I still handle him with a regular halter and a chain. I use the chain as little as possible, but I have it if needed.
I do not allow the yelling and talking as I feel it is inappropriate, distracting and leads to other problems. It also leaves a better impression on people and on the reputation of stallions, when people can come into a barn and not even know there is a stallion there. I have shown and had to tell people nicely that I was on a stallion, because they were mounted on a mare and had no idea. They have always been impressed with his behavior.
Also, I have worked with this stallion in teaching him what it means to be a "gentleman". I tell him "Gentleman, Gentleman" as I calm him down and he has begun to associate that word with behaving when we start the breeding process. I do it as well while he is covering a mare and have stopped all biting of the mares. I also praise him when he behaves, but am quick to correct him if he is not.
Handling of stallions is the most important. Time around mares, i.e., riding in arenas, boarding in a stable, has helped in my stallion calming down around them. I also teach mare owners how to work around the stallion as well. "No butts" pointed at him really keeps problems and talking down.
The biggest thing I have found with stallions, is you must think for you, for them and for everyone around you, because a stallion is a whole different animal.
I'm very experienced with the overly noisy stallions that you speak of. Have been around a few of other peoples. I have no problem in making him mind. I was mainly wanting advice on what kind of handling he needs as far as introduction to mares etc. prior to the breeding. I don't suppose that the first time a young horse is bred that is it's first experience at all with the opposite sex. I haven't decided for certain what I'm doing with him next year but I do know he will be broke to drive in the Spring then started under saddle in the fall. He isn't obnoxious at all around other horses at this point, I cross tie him next to anything and he's been turned out with geldings so he isn't just a spoiled show horse. I appreciate your oppinions about breeding a young horse but it is commonplace in our breed. If he was tiny and not mature I wouldn't even consider it but he's bigger than all my mares now and he's not even 2 yet.
Tracy (198.81.26.134)
Posted on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 02:04 pm:
I also breed Arabians, I didn't know if you were planning on having a riding horse or a halter horse. If we are only showing halter then it doesn't really matter as much if he acts more "studdey" than if he's under saddle. Once bred, no matter how old they are, their attitude will change. I love the Arabian breed as I'm sure you do, what line is your stud out of? I'm always curious what is out there. My colt is a grandson to Bey El Bay, Khemosabi, and triple line to Bask. I do have to say, some of the most well behaved studs I have dealt with are Arabs.(Not that there are not good studs of other breeds, don't want to offend anyone )
My colt is by NV Beau Bey out of a daughter of the great Huckeleberry Bey who is out of an Eter daughter. He is quite the fellow. If I do show him at halter it would be the sport horse in hand stuff as I don't like the current trend in regular halter. The trainer close who has a name enough to get big placeings likes to spank them a lot I think when you do that they are useless as riding horses later. My mares are Baske Tu, Gdansk, Witez II and Bey Shah bred. And I have a nice two year old filly by Hearrts on Fire.
Tracy (198.81.26.134)
Posted on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 01:15 pm:
What state are you in? I'm in Snohomish, Washington and the halter trainer close to me also has a reputation for being a little to harsh. I agree with you, if you show halter you will probably have a useless riding horse later. Sounds like you have a very nice colt. My mares are Bask, Bey El Bay, Fadjur, Silver Drift, and Fire Fall V bred. I am also going to be showing my colt in the in hand Sport horse and then showing dressage. I do not have any geldings on my property, does anyone have any ideas on how to socialize my colt without being around the mares in heat?
ELizabeth Hardy (12.38.198.125)
Posted on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 10:21 am:
You guys saying that training and showing a arab stallion or mare in halter will ruin his/ her performance career is abusrd.
My filly's sire Imperial Satrun has won in Halter at nationals level... he has and is doing well in western pleasure going resevere champ his first time out under Western attire. He has won championships in Country english and Ladies Side saddle.
I think the problem is most Halter champions go staight to the breeding shed so we really do not know if they would or would not have done well in the performance arena..( aside from the required performance points needed to qualify for Nationals)
Just My opinion .
Anonymous (206.222.211.18)
Posted on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 11:43 am:
Just a thought about your "maiden" studs. I think that if you are careful and do not put the stud next to the mare to breed until she is ready you will be fine. I like to tease over a high (five board fence)before letting the stud next to the mare. This way you know if the mare is in a strong enough heat before the stud is placed next to the mare. "Most" mares will be fine to breed if they are showing in a standing heat over the fence. Yes the young studs will fumble around the firt few times, but if he is trained to back off when asked you should be allright. As far as what to use when breeding I like to use a leather halter (that I only use to breed) and then I use an old bridle over the halter that has a ring snaffle on it. The snaffle has alowed me to be able to get my studs head back when he wanted to charge, and I don't have any troubles with him when I ride him in a different snaffle. I allways breed at the same place and try to allways follow the same routine while teasing and breeding.
Tracy (198.81.26.134)
Posted on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 02:34 pm:
Elizabeth, I am fully aware that there are many stallions out there that have been shown halter and gone on to successful riding careers (Khemosabi, GS Khocise to name a couple) What I was saying was that the halter trainer in my area was known to be on the abusive side which made the horses absolute cases and not very calm when it came to be shown under saddle. Also, most Arab halter horses are bred to be shown that way and are not performance horses (notice I say MOST, there are always the exception) I breed my horses for movement and performance, not halter so that is also the reason I would not show my stud in the halter classes. You did not say if you breed Arabs or show them but if you have ever seen an Arab halter show they are very pumped up and the more hyper the better. That usually does not make a quiet show horse under saddle. Again, there are the exceptions but I haven't seen many.
Tracy (198.81.26.134)
Posted on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 02:41 pm:
I also wanted to add that I am also showing my stallion dressage which is entirely different than English Pleasure or even western. My horse is expected to have a lot of impulsion and be showey but also quiet.
ELizabeth Hardy (12.38.198.125)
Posted on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 06:13 pm:
Tracy I do Breed Arabs but only on a very limited and select basis. And I have attended nationals for the last three years.
But with proper training and a good trainer halter horses do not have to be "jazzed up" and ruined for performance even dressage.
I am in Texas and there are some really good halter trainers that do not use abusive techniques and show on a national level and win. Trouble is they are very very expensive.
I have one mare who many have told me could go National halter and performance.. but my funds are limited. Next year I am hoping to start showing in the amatuer levels.
My 10 week old filly is breath taking and will also do well once she is old enough to show.
I do not like showing horses under one year and actually prefer to start at 2yrs or older.
I hope your stallion does well in dressage.. it is a difficult art but when done correctly very beautifull.
Good luck.
Liz
Tracy (198.81.26.134)
Posted on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 - 01:06 pm:
Elizabeth, I think you hit the nail on the head. Finding those good halter trainers that are not abusive (at least in my area)are not cheap or easy to find. Good luck with your up and coming filly. By the way, her daddy is a beautiful stallion.
kho_magic1 (216.43.46.85)
Posted on Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 01:07 pm:
Ok we digress from my question to flaming halter vs. performance. I have a 9 yr old mare that I spent 10 mos 'training' for halter she stands up just as well as any of the mares at nationals and does so because she was trained. She places in halter consistently somewhere in the ribbons but isn't extreem in her head so she looses to those who are. She can then turn around and kick their a-- in the performance divisions. I show her in Hunter/Dressage/Native Costume and will do sport horse stuff with her this year. I do not chose to send my nice colt (who is bred to do halter and performance!) to a trainer out of state in order for him to garner the kind of halter championships that attract mare owners by the droves. The local halter person with a big enough name here also seems to turn out horses that are nuts. Stallions that try and kill you if you raise anything to them etc. he doesn't ride doesn't know how to and doesn't care. Most of his clients don't do performance either, yes their horses get retired to the breeding shed but I think a lot of it is because they have been abused to the point where they are useless at anything else. I may do sport horse in hand with my colt where he can be normal and not stretch etc. I have every intention of showing him as a Country English horse on the local level. He may never make it to nationals where every division keeps changeing to make it tougher for the little guy without a huge $1200+ a month trainer to succeed but he will do just fine here and can stay at home where I love him and will not abuse him.
I like the idea of a bridle on a stallion I have put one on him a few time and lunged him to get him used to it and I can see why people in europe handle stallions in bridles, gives them something to do with their busy mouths! My colt is 22 mos old and is really just starting to get really nippy but with a bridle on he's much better as he has something to chew on so he's not looking for something. Which is good when he's already 15 hands tall and filling out rapidly.
Anyways I will have to see what I can do to get a teasing area made as I am at a public stable. Those that have stallions there tend to tease the mare by bringing her to the stallion not sure I like that as you have no controll over the stallion since they leave him loose in his stall. But the stalls where my mares are have pipe for the front (disaster if one decides to strike).
Hi, I am not going to comment on the Arab show world, but I will tell you about what we do with our stallions for breeding: First of all, I am very strict that he must have very good manners before even teasing a mare. He must obey WHOA over any other instinct. I don't care what is going on, if I say whoa, he MUST stop in his tracks. Secondly, most of our stallions are handled daily in just a halter with a rope. However, when needed, we will put a chain over their nose. When breeding, they either get a chain under their chin, or thru their mouth, depending on the stallion. The chain is run thru the left hand ring, under their chin or thru the mouth, thru the right side ring, then up to the top ring (nearest their right eye). This method prevents the snap from rubbing or pinching in any way. The chain is NEVER used under the chin or thru the mouth unless breeding or teasing. This is my way of telling him "ok, now you can talk to the mares, and sniff and touch". Unfortunately, I don't have a teaser stallion, so my boys have to tease and sometimes they go back to their stalls without breeding. I solve the anxiety problem by removing the lead. If the mare is ready to breed, the stallion goes back to his stall and I loop the lead around his neck and tie it to his halter. Generally he is then tied up in his stall until the mare is washed and ready for breeding. With a young stallion, it generally takes three times and they understand: lead on=breeding, lead off=no breeding and they will just go eat their hay. I have found this to work very well for me. I also try to lunge my youngsters for just a minute or two after breeding to reinforce the fact that just because they are out here, doesn't mean that their training can go out the window! Good luck with your guy, and hope this helped! Jennifer Fraser fraserl@nexicom.net
FYI (63.171.187.139)
Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 04:21 pm:
I felt I had to add a post, as I had not seen this suggestion made. I have a small breeding operation and a friend nearby stands 3 stallions and is raising up a 4th. All are very large WB's and all are successful show horses (dressage) to boot. Very well mannered. In each case, she purchased these horses young...as yearlings. They went right out into the pasture with the broodmares. The ladies did the training and believe me, they did great!! Those stallions are super respectful and very gentle...not to mention smart...they don't get excited or waste their time on a mare that isn't ready. In my case, I had a colt who we felt might be a stallion prospect and he was raised with the mares as well. We ultimately gelded him, but he learned his manners well too. I realize this isn't a practical solution for everyone or for every stallion, but if you are raising the colt yourself and have the space, it's a great learning tool. And if the colt breeds a mare, well, DNA will sort the whole thing out in the end!
Now all my friend's stallions go to a stallion station at the beginning of breeding season, because they cover so many outside mares, but the lessons they learned as youngsters really seemed to stay with them.
Kho-Magic (216.43.46.85)
Posted on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 05:45 pm:
That would be a great idea and I would not be opposed to turning him out with my mares if I had somewhere to do it. Unfortunatly, they live at a public boarding stable so this is not an option. He is young but is HUGE he is 15 hands now and will be 2 on Feb 20. This makes him bigger than all my mares. My oldest mare who is the matriarch when the mares are out together is definatly an alpha mare and would not hesitate to teach him some manners. But I just don't have the place to do it.
Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 12:03 am:
I would like some info on stud/colts in a stable boarding situation. We are in the process of rewriting the rules. The current rule states the colt must be gelded or removed by 18 mnths or sooner if he misbehaves. I think this is reasonable. But they would like to change it to 8mnths. Are there any special precautions that need to be taken. What if any are the impact on the behavior on the other horses? At what age do they reach sexual maturity?
Anonymous Posted From: 65.40.231.174
Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 02:30 pm:
I am owning my own stallion for the first time this year - being a 23+ year horse woman.
My stallion, at the age of 5, was already bred, but didnt' have much in the way of 'training' (he knew how to lead,have his hooves picked, tie etc, but didn't know 'ground work' let alone riding).
I can't give an opinion about training to ride FIRST before breeding. HOWEVER --- I wished my guy didn't ever know what LIVE COVER was!!!
I have NO CLUE if horses 'trained' only on Phantoms ever act 'stallion-ish' around mares (I guess mother nature WOULD kick in with smells etc)--- but I guess 'learning by association' couldn't hurt!
And I wished my guy had been KEPT OUT with 'males' - because he gets very aggressive to the geldings out here and I can not turn him out with them.
He takes his position as the 'stallion of the farm' very seriously, you see! :-)
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