We have been collecting a 17 yr old stallion that is not an easy fellow to collect at the best of times. We have not been able to collect him the last few times as he is climbing off the phantom and not ejaculating. He has given us pre-ejaculate on several occasions but will not finish the job. He usually collects on 1 to 2 jumps. His libido is excellent, and we have tried mares in really good standing heat right beside the phantom, less water, more water, hotter water, cooler water. He seems to really want to do it, but stops and gets down. We are using a Colorado AV. We have used latex liners, or plastic it doesn't weem to matter. Last week he collected very well. Any idea's? We cannot see any damage to his penis and he seems healthy. Any idea's as we are at whit's end, but something is definitly bothering him. We thought that we might try a Missouri AV as maybe when he flowers there is too much pressure. Any suggestions welcome.
Jos (142.177.84.228)
Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 03:10 pm:
Let's start at the end (literally!) first, and work backwards!
The stallion should have his penis at the very end of the AV at the time of ejaculation - and in fact it is ideal if he has the glans slightly external to the end of the AV. Many AV's we see in use in North America are actually too long for the stallion, and the end result is that the semen comes into contact with the heated liner of the AV and becomes heat shocked (so you may see lots swimming in circles). It also means that if the penis is in the correct location at the time of ejaculation, excessive pressure is unlikely to be a factor. Note too, that the Missouri will in fact give more pressure as the glans will still be contained within the latex portion of the AV at the distal end, regardless of it's being external to the heated portion.
OK.... as the stallion collected well last week, let's look at things that might have changed...
Probably the biggest thing that is going to cause a sudden halting like this is pain. You said that there is no sign of injury to the penis, which is good, but have you looked at the inside of his front legs? What is the cover of the phantom made of? If it is a "hot" material (or even perhaps if it's not!) it could be causing friction burns or soreness and this could be distracting him. The next thing to consider is back pain - he's an older stallion at 17, so contemplate the possibility of giving him a little Phenylbutazone a couple of hours ahead of collection. If his back is sore, then he's going to quit for sure before he's done!
Now to the actual mechanics of the equipment.
What height do you have the phantom at? Review that, and often higher is better! For the "average" light horse 56" works best. How hot do you have the AV? An internal temperature of between 45 and 54 degrees Celsius is required, with "shy" stallions generally preferring it hotter. Is your internal temperature this hot at the time of collection? What about lubricant? We like to use simple mineral oil - it takes very little to lubricate an AV lots (note - you may not want to use this if you are not using disposable plastic liners as it will cause latex to deteriorate). Putting lots of lubricant in there can make a big difference. The angle of the AV can be a factor too - is he happy with the angle? Try and hold it at about the same angle that a mare's vagina would be at.
If none of these factors seem to make any difference, then you should perhaps contemplate seeking the advice of your veterinarian, as it is possible that there may be internal damage to the penis from infection etc.
If you would like to contact me personally using this form mail page to discuss this further, please feel free to do so and I will be happy to try and help.
BB (204.244.19.93)
Posted on Wednesday, January 22, 2003 - 03:53 am:
I am about to start a young warmblood stallion breeding. I need advise as to how to go about starting him. What experience do you have with live cover first, going directly in the first place to a phantom, etc. What are the advantages/disadvantages of the colorado vs Missouri? My guy is just 4, is going well under saddle, understands whoa very well. He is stabled in a barn with mares all around, can be ridden by them with no problem. any advise re phantom construction, cover materials, etc... all help much appreciated!
We have a 13 yr old stallion that we purchased this year, we tried to collect him and he would flower but not ejaculate all we collected was pre-ejaculate. We tried live cover and he is came off the mare looking as though he did not ejactulate. He has great libido is very easy to handle. We spoke to previous owners and they sucessfully bred him last year. We have cleaned him and looked to see if he has anything that may be causing pain. Any input would be helpful. Thanks
Ok, We're using a Missouri style AV Water Temp at filling was 125 degrees F and we proceeded to collect him imediately. I undertand the variables with collection, but why does he seem to do the same with live cover? I checked him again last night and he has nothing on his penis to make me think it's painful. I dont want to start a problem or make an existing one worse. We have 4 of our private mares to cover in the next few days, with 8 more of our own within the next 2 weeks...any ideas?
I have to assume that there are no handler issues - the handler can certainly make a big difference in the stallion's performance in some cases.
Assuming the above, I would start by evaluation for soreness elsewhere than the penis (seeing as you have ruled that one out). Often older stallions can have sore backs, hips, hocks or stifles that interfere with completion of breeding. If that is the case, use of Banamine or 'Bute an hour or so ahead of breeding/collection can make all the difference.
If there doesn't appear to be a problem with regards to soreness that can me remedied by the use of NSAID's, then one should consider the possibility of soreness elsewhere - typically internally in the reproductive tract. This can be difficult to identify as it may be as a result of infection or injury, and - obviously - is not visible externally. Your veterinarian should be able to assist you with that.
If you want to try and collect him again, I would start with the AV temperature warmer. If you are filling at 125° then it is probably cooling down to 10 or so degrees less than that, and that is at the lower end of the spectrum for stallion comfort. The usual range is 113-130° F internal temperature of the AV. Stallions do vary in the their likes and dislikes though, so there is no guarantee that will work.
If the stallion has bred a lot live cover, try having the AV looser. Often experienced live cover stallions prefer it that way.
Other than the behaviour of the stallion at dismount, how are you determining that he did not ejaculate when breeding live cover?
thanks so much........I will try again this evening with some banamine. We will also try to collect him again with warmer water and looser AV. When we collected him the last time, there was no sperm in the collection bottle, he never flagged his tail, he maintained his erection and stayed flowered as he dismounted. So based on those observations and the rest simply assumption(not good I know) we felt he did not ejaculate. I will never rule out handler problems with the collection. He really seemed to be trying to perform and I did notice that he was better when the AV was warmer. With the live cover, his behaviour was identical to behavior with collection, assumption again.
Thanks! He's sore in his front end. got him on NSAID therapy now and he is doing better. Thanks again, I think we're at least moving in the right direction.
I just encountered the same problem with two of my stallions. They were perfect before and were colllected many times with no problems whatsoever. The last time which was this morning he would mount insert his penis but would not be as forceful as he used to be and then suddenly he would rear and retract himself from the AV. All temperatures were used starting at 40 degrees celsius to 50 and all pressure setting were also use. We are in a shock since the breeding season is just starting. We use a Colorado 19" AV and those are Arabian stallions. When we had both of them cover naturally it was not a problem and they ejaculated and didnt seem in pain at all. I realize that the inside of a mare is more comfortable and has less pressure. Inspecting the penis there was no lesions or any signs of soreness. A swab was taken pre and post ejaculation for the two stallions just two weeks before this started and they came back -ve. Both are not sore anywhere they were checked by a vet all over and like I said they cover naturally with no problems so definitely it has to do with the AV. We even tried the reusable liner and still no luck. Is there a skin condition that is associated with ssome sort of disease or virus that does not manifest itself visibly . We are lost here and concerened that if we use them using natural cover we may spreading soem sort of disease or something. Any thoughts. The weird thing is that it happened to both stallions around the same week. We have other stallions on the farm that have no problem and are being collected using the same procedure
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