I have a two year old Hanoverian stallion (never been bred) who has a 10+ temperament and is extremely well behaved. In the last two months, he has started rearing (as high as he can go!) whenever he is led anywhere near a mare - mostly when he sees them out in the pasture. It seems like he is trying to get their attention, as he rears and whinnies/screams like crazy and makes the biggest commotion he can. I have tried many things to stop this (such as chain over nose, under chin, under lip, a whip, someone following me with a whip, making lots of noise) all to no avail. He is immediately sorry once he does it and stops very quickly, but the next time we go near a mare, he does it again. This is absolutely the only problem I have with him and once he has made his commotion, he will walk quietly by the mare and be fine. I am wondering if this is a passing phase, or if it is a pre-cursor of what is to come down the road. This horse is extremely well bred and was designated a stallion prospect in Germany, so I would hate to geld him, but I do not want to deal with this all the time. Any suggestions? Thanks!
Kelly (63.172.47.180)
Posted on Saturday, August 11, 2001 - 01:20 pm:
This is definetly not a passing phase. It will only escalate if left as is. It can be stoppped and should not be a reason to geld such a nice stallion.
Is this stallion stabled separately from the mares? It sounds as if this stallion needs more exposure to mares in general. I would suggest securing him in a safe place, and exposing him to the mares. Control his attention during this time. You may have to enforce your demands with some attention getting reprimands. He will get the picture. He must be allowed enough time to get "bored" with the visual stimulation.
I have found that if I pinch off their air, by closing both nostrils with a firm grip, they soon learn that standing quietely and breathing is a good thing. They will struggle against it at first, but if you prevail and reward them immediately by releasing, and allowing air flow, they will relate. Start this with the first signs of inattention. Be sure to quickly release at the first sign of compliance. Start with short moments of withholding, then lengthen them according to his insistance. You may then reinforce this with a verbal cue of your choice.
Eventually, he will become accostomed to the presence of the mares. Secure him in different locations, and repeat the lesson until he understands that every location requires the same behavior. It may take some time, but it will work. Do make sure that you have the time to allow him to be de-sensitized. It may take hours or the most part of the day. Expect days of this, at each new location, although after the initial lesson the others will be easier.
I have 8 stallions, and all stand quietely next to each other. They are not stabled separately from the mares , and stand quietely while mares run free in an adjoining pastures. Visitors comment on the quiet behavior of these stallions, daily. Farriers, and veterinarians are happy to come and work with them all.
Be insistant and good luck.
Noble Knight (206.157.249.116)
Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 04:37 am:
Hannover, a stallion that is vocal, spirited, and with carriage when encountering mares is a beautiful thing. It sounds like your young boy there is starting to feel his oats. He is starting to understand and is anticipating breeding. He may also be trying to "dominate" and do what he wants. ALL stallions continually try to dominate, whether subtle or very aggressive, and it can not be tolerated. His behavior may become more dangerous and aggressive if not corrected. Let him have no doubt that YOU are the boss and the head of the herd.
Some years ago I purchased a younger stallion that would rear when encountering mares from his stall or pasture. He was stalled close to and could see mares most of the day (I assume your situation). He immediately stopped after I used a homemade War Bridle. I see similar halters such as the "Be Nice Halter" in horse supply books. The war bridle puts pressure on the spinal cord just behind the ears and in front of the atlas bone (first vertebra) where the spinal cord is basically unprotected and extremely sensitive. A quick firm tug (release immediately) just as he starts to rear should do the trick. Use authoritative verbal commands in conjunction. I also reluctantly used a method I read in a book once on a very thick headed boy that did not completely respond to the war bridle. Just as he started to rear, I sidestepped him and gave him a good boot on the underside. It seemed mean but it worked. Every time he thought about doing it again, he would give me an irritated look for ½ a second but never reared again. Other methods you should try first include sharply wheeling him around when you anticipate his rearing, or repetitive exposure to the situation until compliant (if coming from the stall and he rears, look him in the eye tell him it's not acceptable, take him back in and try again in 10 min.). Since he is "immediately sorry" he does want to please you and it should not take much at this point. I think he is just a little overanxious. Spirited stallions react quite anxiously when brought into a mares presence. All my stallions are vocal and "show off" to the mares even when taken out of their view for just a few minutes, it's their nature and is desirable if they are well mannered and under control.
I personally would not recommend pinching his nose, I have seen some stallions resort to biting and becoming head shy. Discipline should be during noncompliance and in your situation it would be before or after the fact. Since he is immediately sorry and compliant, he may be confused if you tried it afterwards and I don't think you can do it when his head is 5 feet above yours. Pinching his nose is another battle in itself. If you try it on the wrong stallion and loose, you will regret it.
I'm not sure if the first respondent to your question just stalls the stallions together or also keeps their stallions together in a pasture adjoining the mares. I would not recommend keeping your stallions in the same pasture. Battle scars are not good management. A fellow I know did this on occasion and he woke up one morning with a half dead, basically gelded horse that was once a beautiful promising stallion. He said the aggressor had impeccable social manners and a super disposition. This "good natured" stallion at least spared the younger ones life.
Hannover (152.163.201.186)
Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 07:32 am:
Thank you to both people who responded to my message. Just to add some more information - My stallion is the only stallion on the farm, he is stabled and pastured right in the middle of everything and he can see mares all day long from his paddock. He talks to them occasionally from his paddock, but the real commotion starts when I take him out of the paddock and walk him around. More often than not, he does not give me any warning that a rear is coming - sometimes he goes up in the air first and then once he is in the air, he starts whinnying. This makes it hard to correct beforehand. I can pretty much anitipate when the rear is coming, but until he rears, he is being perfect, so I am not sure how much good I am doing by starting to punish him before he has done anything yet ( even though I know it is coming soon!) I definitely need a correction that corrrects the act while he is doing it, not before or after because he knows the difference. I have tried putting a rope over his pole (along with a chain on his nose) and the first time he reared with that, he came down immediately and was perfect! I thought I had found my miracle cure, but pretty soon, he knew what to expect and it was no longer effective. I am not sure exactly what a war bridle is, or if it is much different. I talked to some people who said I should not be taking him around mares, so I tried that, and if you take mares out of the equation, he is perfect, but the problem is not gone, just masked. He is a very submissive horse by nature and there is absolutely no fight in him, so I think that if I can find the right punishment, I can stop this problem - I hope! Any suggestions/advice will be appreciated. Thanks!
Kelly (63.172.47.188)
Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 11:09 am:
Hannover- It is just as I suspected, your young stallion is reacting to the exposure to the mares.
Do not remove him from them... bring them in closer. Tie them closer, place them in paddocks closer until he gets "bored" with it all. The last thing that you want your stallion to do, is to think that mares will bring him punishment. I would not want to over do the painful exreience just yet, especially because as you said,"there is absoluetely no fight in him". I have used all of the methods that Noble suggested, different horses require different methods and they will work.
I do not allow "talking" unless we are in a breeding situation. Your young stallion is starting his behavior with vocalizing. When you are attempting to walk by a mare, this is not always a time for breeding. He needs to learn the difference. To me, and many other professionals, it is not a beautiful thing to have a stallion, screaming and acting out. They must be quiet gentlemen until they are in a breeding situation. My stallions are shown and must behave under many different and stimulationg situations.
With this in mind, I suggest the "nose pinch". I am a 5'8'', 135lb. woman that employees this technique with great success. None of my stallions are head shy, none bite. As I attempted to explain, if you start with a quick pinch and release, it will be at the apporpriate timing. He will not have his head 5 feet over his head if your reflexes are in a timely manner. I have also employeed this technique with horses that would not keep their head down for the bit.I would start behavior modification with his inappropriate vocalization. Once he is allowed to attempt contact, why should he then back off? It is much easier and less distracting when a stallion learns the proper time to display this mating behaviors.
I have successfully raised, breed and shown many stallions, they are my specialty. My main stallion is a very expensive and talented individual. I stable them at night and they spend the day outside in various places around the ranch. It is important for my stallions to act well, because they are in many different show rings and stable conditions during the show year.
I stand and breed them myself, during the breeding season. I do not turn them out together, as that would be pushing their natural instincts too far. But, they must stand close to one another as well as mares, and behave in a manner acceptable to public events and competition.
You have started with a young one, that is just now starting to feel the effects of testosterone. You can modify his behavior, and have a successful outcome. It will take repetition and consistancy.
I will reiterate that not all breeds consider "showing off" desirable. You would be asked to leave a show ring if a stallion behaved like that in many arenas. It may take a bit more work, but a well behaved stallion in all situations is very possible. I walk out to a barn filled with them every day!
Hannover (205.188.199.38)
Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 11:37 am:
If I were to use the nose pinch method, how would I go about doing it if he does not do anything at all until he is up in the air rearing? A lot of the time, he gives me no warning at all. If he vocalizes first, I can get him to stop it and he won't rear; but quite often, he does nothing until he is up in the air.
Kelly (63.172.47.199)
Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 01:31 pm:
Hannover- You have a point. I believe that if you tie him near mares, he will start with the vocalizing first. Once they learn that to invite contact is not acceptable, the leading/rearing problem should be easier to control. I tie my stallions for long periods of time in different locations. Each time, it starts with the vocal contact.
This year, I had an older Arabian stallion brought to me for handling during breeding. He had been allowed to vocalize at will, the trainer believed that to do otherwise would " ruin his spirit". As you can imagine, he was a loud obnoxious animal when he arrived. It had counted against him in the Dressage arena as well.
It took me 2 days to teach him, that behavior was not welcomed here. He responded beautifully and has become a very pleasant animal to be around. To the trainers surprise, he has focused in the arena as well. No surprise to me! I have hauled and shown many stallions to World class standings.
It was a bit of a battle of the wills, this I will admit. But, after repetition and insistance, all is well. He has learned to graze quietely until presented with the mare, and no longer pulls and screams his way to the breeding pen. He quiets down immediately follow the breeding session and enjoys his grazing time reward. They can now lead and tie him near the other horses at their trainers and are introducing him to combined training because of his improvement.
Remember, stack the deck in your favor. Try not to proceed until you have his attention and understanding while he is secure and can not rear. When this had been acomplished, add the movement. Try leading the mares by him. Start at a distance, then bring them in closer. After he has accepted that, then lead him by the mares. This will not be a one day job. Take as long as you need at each step to insure success. This is not a timed event! Eventually you will prevail. I have faith in you!
Noble Knight (206.157.249.101)
Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 02:55 pm:
Hannover, the rope that you used around his head and behind the ears is probably too big. A war bridle uses a small (little over a quarter inch) piece of material in the location I described. The area that the spinal cord is not covered by bone is quite small and the rope you used caused some pressure but not enough. Trust me, the war bridle will work. I've seen completely useless, vicious stallions that could not be handled come around in 10 minutes with the use of the war bridle but it was a serious battle to get it on him. It is a tool that should be used with other forms of disipline/management. Any pressure while your horse is in the air or on the way up will immediately bring him down and he will probably not try it more than once or twice. As you said about the rope situation Hannover, he knows what to expect and if he expects the correction a war bridle has to offer, he's not likely to try again. I would not recommend the chain over the nose unless it is absolutely necessary due to damaging/scarring his nose. It sounds more to be a fight for domination or his way to "get one up on you" since he seems to rear only when handled.
Off the subject but seemingly important since it was addressed - As far as a spirited, vocal stallion, it is completely acceptable on our breeding farm. My foundation stallion was sired by a world champion, out of a national champion mare, is a multi champion himself, and has sired the same. And yes he has carriage, spirit, and respect for his fellow horse and handler which would be me. Consistent handling is the key.
Kelly (63.172.47.226)
Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2001 - 04:19 pm:
It is my personal opinion that a yelling, loud stallion is an obnoxious animal. I also feel that to have one that behaves in such a manner is unecessary.
I allow vocalization only during breeding. My stallions know the difference between breeding and being lead around the barn. My stallions are performance horses and it is not acceptable for them to behave otherwise in performance competition. I have shown to two World titles myself as well as numerous National titles, believe me, it will not be tolerated. Beyond the obvious set back for competition, I personally think that noisy stallions are annoying.
Michelle (216.191.179.130)
Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2001 - 03:29 pm:
This is an interesting discussion. I am curious to hear if Hanover has tried or has had any success with either method.
I have also heard recommended to correct a stallion's inappropriate rearing is with the use a whip; when he rears, give him a wack on the belly (safer I would think than kicking with your foot). He will only need this correction a couple of times to learn to behave. Has anyone used this technique?
Kelly (63.172.47.221)
Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2001 - 05:05 pm:
Michele- You are correct, given the situation, a correction with a whip can be enough. The problem is, all situations are different. It is hard to help when one can not observe exactly what is happening. Timing is everthing.
I have raised, trained and shown over 30 different stallions. They are a specialty of mine, and I like working with them. Each one is unique, but everyone of them will attempt to dominate at some point. It may come as a surprise when the sweet, docile young stallion starts to mature. Usually, some other behavior has gone unnoticed. Something that would not signal a problem with a mare or gelding, can be the start of undesireable behavior with a stallion. All in all, they are fairly predictable creatures! It takes exposure to many different stallions to understand all of the behaviors.
Ivy (152.6.25.104)
Posted on Friday, August 24, 2001 - 08:44 am:
Kelly: You are correct about the sweet young docile stallion behavior. Once the young stallion learns what he is you can never really trust him, because stallions like to play head games and will continually test you for dominance. I carry a childs plastic baseball bat. LOL. It doesn't hurt him, but it makes a terrible sound when I have to smack my stallion. When I carry the baseball bat, I feel like I have protection if I need it, and I look bigger to him. My yound stallion (3 years old) is for the most part well natured, but he just hasn't learned that mares have heat cycles, so the majortity of the time the girls are not interested in him. He carrys on..and on...and sometimes when we have company over and we are all outside, I get embarrassed when he drops or belly bops. Ha Haa Haaa.
Kelly (63.172.47.192)
Posted on Friday, August 24, 2001 - 10:05 am:
Ivy- You are so right, although they can be a very well behaved stallion, NEVER "trust" them.
A message to Kelly, I find your comments on stallions quite interesting. I am an amateur dressage rider in NJ, and own a 5 yr. old Dutch Stallion. Why, you may ask? (I am asking myself the same question.) I think my trainer used bad judgement in allowing me to purchase him, and keeping him a stallion, but that is over and done with, and now I must exercise my options. My dilemma now is whether to geld him or not. I am unsure exactly how he will change. He is a very well behaved stallion--stabled with mares in a small barn, and I ride him in the same indoor ring as other mares and geldings. He is very, very mouthy, however, and wants to put EVERYTHING in his mouth all the time. I am small (5'3" 105 lbs.), and he is 17 hands. Is this habit curable? It is very annoying when I am trying to put on the lunge equipment by myself, or even just work around him. He also is much more distracted under saddle when there are mares around, understandably, and I have trouble keeping him round, and he is reluctant to listen to me. If I geld him, will he lose his brilliance? He is an incredibly handsome animal, and I wonder how much he will change physically if he is gelded. Also, he is quite insensitive to leg and whip now, as a stallion. Will this just be exacerbated when he is gelded? Thank you very much for you help. Monica Stevenson
Michelle (64.228.86.38)
Posted on Friday, August 24, 2001 - 11:56 am:
Monica, thanks for sharing...I would also be interested in hearing what Kelly has to say regarding your situation.
I have a 15 month old colt who also puts EVERYTHING in his month. He is much less "nippy" towards people than he used to be, but I would like to get rid this behaviour completely! For the most part it is playful nipping accept for sometimes when I ask him to do something he is not in the mood to do. For example, backing up, or after 5 minutes of being away from his buddies he thinks it has been long enough.
Any suggestions on how I can "nip" this poor behaviour in the bud? Thanks.
Kelly (63.172.47.188)
Posted on Friday, August 24, 2001 - 01:40 pm:
You are both experiencing life with a young stallion! Your situation is not unique, your horse is not acting out of character. I start training my stallions as foals, so this biting is stopped before it even begins. When a stallion comes to me with this behavior, it must be remedied.
In the wild, it is nessecary for the young stallion to learn offensive as well as defensive moves. The young stallion learns to bite and dodge in playful interaction with another. The mouth is a primary weapon of choice, for the obvious reasons. It serves to sever the throat or emasulate another stallion. This is a natural reaction for a stallion to exhibit.
Now, how to stop this behavior before it gets out of hand. First of all, a stallion should be handled about the head area as little as possible. Excessive petting and such on or about the face can stimulate this nipping reaction. I am not saying that you can not hug and enjoy your stallion, but stay away from the mouth and keep the pats on the neck. Hand feeding of treats is out, place them in a bucket. Do not allow others to approach and pat your horse unattended. Once he starts, he must be reprimanded.
The best place to reprimand a stallion is on his side, along the rib cage. If you smack him on the head or mouth, this will also stimulate a nipping reaction. I have had stallions in various stages of biting behavior. At a beginning stage, by placing a length of wire through the halter and around the mouth, it has stopped any further progress. Please understand, I use wire not to hurt them, but to make it uncomfortable when they attempt to open their mouth to bite. I start with it quite loose so they know what it is, then tighten it up. I make sure that when the mouth is closed, it does not bind. If you use leather or some other pliant material, it defeats the purpose. They can lean on a softer material, and when you take it off they do not think twice about biting.
Once this nipping has become a learned behavior, it can get harder to correct. If allowed, it will escalate, be certain of this. I was sent one playful stallion that had incorporated this nipping into every single situation. I carried a slender piece of wood with two nails sticking through the end. When he would attempt to nip, I placed the working end of that stick in his way. It did not take too many times of him sticking himself to realize that this was not a smart game. I had to have that stick with me at all times, if they get away with it again, you have less of a chance of making it work. It also had to be quite unpleasant, if it were not, he would have considered it a good gamble. It is important to note that I did not swing at him in any way. Let him contact the unpleasant situation himself. They must know that it is something that they are initiating, not reacting too. Correction must be immediate and consistant. I have a few stallions who will wiggle their lips, but dare not bite. You can never take a stallion for granted. They will never be completely free from their natural instincts. We can modify these behaviors, not eradicate them entirely. After every instance of a reprimand, I then reassure them with a pat and soothing words. Too often, stallions are corrected but not assured of mutual respect and kindness. You must enforce both, correction and respectful kindness.
Monica- Yes, you can geld him and expect behavioral changes. He will most probably give up the nipping and focus on the task at hand. If he has not be bred, your chances are better. Even if he has been bred, changes for the better can occur.
He will loose the fatty crest of the neck, and may not fully develope the "cheeky" look that aged stallion have. This can make for a cleaner throat latch and more bend at the poll. ( not a bad exchange )You will find him much less restistant to collection commands and more willing to comply with new requests. As for the brilliance, it depends on the animal. I would rather have a horse that I needed to help forward, than a distracted stallion that ignored my leg or whip aids.
When a stallion becomes excited, his testosterone and adreniline work together to make a pain killer of sorts. That way, in the wild a fight between two stallions may last until one is dead, or mortally injured. Survival of the fittest ( if they felt the full extent of each kick or bite, the inferior stallion would live to breed again )So, with the proper training, you may find your new gelding very responsive. A gelding will be more consistant, a stallion may be breath takingly brilliant.....at times. Those "times" may be few and far between, it all depends.
Expect slow changes in your newly gelded horse. It may take 6 weeks to 6 months to see the completed improvements. He may loose size in his neck. He may settle down and make you a very enjoyable mount. Owning a stallion is not for everyone, you can never quite relax completely.
My feeling from your note is that you would like to concetrate on your training and his stallion like tendencies are getting in the way of your enjoyment and progress. How bad could it be to have a gorgejous, cooperative gelding?
Noble Knight (206.157.249.114)
Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2001 - 04:45 pm:
Monica & Michelle, biting and nipping is probably the most common complaint of stallion owners. It doesn't sound like your stallions are biting out of viciousness. I don't think letting them bite nails would be appropriate for their type of behavior. If they were trying to actually harm you by biting maybe, but for a mean spirited biter I would use a cooled baked potato, hot but not too hot as to burn him badly. I had an older stallion here for training one year and he was quite a biter. He had actually tore the flesh and muscles of his owners shoulder and also wounded his trainer. He was a real money maker of a stallion and he understandably wanted to keep him. I put the potato on my shoulder and stood by the fence. It didn't take long and he was there. I pretended to ignore him and he took the bait. Last time he ever bit anything.
I would suggest using a hot onion first, then maybe a diluted red pepper sauce not too hot that you could not stand it yourself. If they bite at the halter or lead, tie a sandwich bag on the item (as to not let the substance soak into it) and put the onion juice on a piece of cloth tied on top of the bag. Try not to let him smell it. When you see him going for the nip, steer it towards his mouth. You could also have it separately in one hand and steer it towards his mouth when he goes for the nip. I have used it on the "nippers" I've encountered and it works quite well.
I have also heard of the whiffle bat method Ivy. Just remember not to taunt him with it by showing it to him and saying look what I got, ya better stay in line. Smack him good when he needs it. Try not to rely on it though, only carry it occasionally when he starts to act up and not conform to more conventional discipline. You would hate to have to carry it everytime you handle the boy.
I like your observations of the "belly bop" thing. It seems that almost everyday at around the same time, my stallions will come to the same place in their pastures looking at the others, take their wiz and dung in the same place (which would be a serious mound of stench if not dealt with) and look at each other with the stupidest look and all in unison have their belly bop contest. It's just too much, cracks me up every time.
I wish you all well with your stallions.
Kelly (63.172.47.209)
Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2001 - 07:10 pm:
Obviously, I expect that both Michelle and Monica understand that I was attempting to show them a wide range of techniques. I am confident that they can decern for themselves if their stallions are vicious at this time.
A biter can be dangerous even if they do not intend to be, it can start quite harmlessly at first. If the nip lands on a sensitive face or other fragile area, it will do damage even if it were intended as play. I will strongly suggest that either of you do not attempt to bait a stallion into a bite attack. You have NO CONTROL over where the bite will land. I have seen the "potato" method suggested in an older Western Horseman magazine advice column. I did not agree with it then, and I do not suggest that you try it now. I have personally been around some of the most famous Quarter Horse stallions of our time, and have never seen their professional handlers employ this technique, ever. I can't help but believe that these famous horses and their trainers are correct. But, I am sure that you will make the best decision for your situations.
The facts of the matter are, a stallion will respect what he can understand. He understands that if he attempts to bite and encounters something that "bites" harder, he must take the one down position. I find it ridiculous that I have to explain this again, but please do not place nails in your horses mouth. The point is, if he initiates a bite, there is something there that will nip him back, instantly. I am confident that you two understand the concept. ( a small protruding nail end will suffice.) You can easily manuver it into position when needed. As I stated earlier, this was a very persistant and consistant biter. It did work very well. It did not injure him beyond a few pricks on the muzzle. It was indeed unpleasant, and meant to be so.
Stallions will continually mark their territory with their own scent. However, I do not allow them to drop and masterbate at will, while they are tied or being handled. Of course, in the pens or on their own time is another thing! My stallions do not drop, or scream at inappropriate times. It takes some work, but they are perfect gentlemen, and I am very proud of them all.
One of the easiest & quickest ways I've found to stop nipping or biting, whether by a stallion, mare or gelding, is to have Binaca, Sweet Breath or other brand breath spray handy & ready, & at the first indication of nipping or mouthing, give a quick blast right to the mouth. Horses seem to not like the taste or sensation & it will not harm them. It usually only takes a couple of lessons before they decide it's best to keep their lips closed*smile* I have several stallions & none of them are the slightest bit mouthy.
Kelly (63.172.47.195)
Posted on Monday, August 27, 2001 - 11:21 am:
Vicki- Absolutely! It can come in handy while in a public setting. Great for use at shows, etc. They make some great faces with it don't they?!
Noble Knight (206.157.249.102)
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2001 - 04:38 am:
If people with stallions reading this are now worried because their stallions belly bop (considered masturbating?), don't. I have only seen one stallion do what I would call masturbate and if your's does this, you will know it immediately. He did not mount anything but sure went through the motions, not just dropping and flexing a few times but rubbing his belly in action. In my opinion, belly bopping for stallions is a display to mares and other stallions just as a male peacocks tail feathers being displayed or the head swaying of a large antlered bull moose. If it is not breeding season and your stallion is displaying this type of behavior often, maybe it is a problem. I really don't have any sound advice since I've not seen it except in their pastures during the breeding season or when teasing mares.
Noble Knight (206.157.249.104)
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2001 - 05:38 am:
Kelly, as I understand Michelle and Monica's posts as does Vicki offering an alternative, these two ladies are having problems with their stallions putting "EVERYTHING in their mouths" or lipping things. Unless this means biting at people, it seems to be objects like halters, leads, combs, brushes, etc.. It's unclear whether the one stallion is nipping or biting at Michelle or objects more aggressively when "he thinks he has had enough".
I feel your only advice of wiring their mouth shut and tightening it up or letting them get pricked by nails was not right for their situation. For a stallion BITING at or dangerously close to people, yes I would maybe try the stick, for a VICIOUS stallion with eyes of red that tries to tear at flesh I would consider the hot potato. A majority of the famous bred animals are with professional or experienced trainers/handlers since a very young age and never even come close to exhibiting this vicious behavior. Most professional trainers see maybe an occasional mild biter. The "neighborhood" trainer gets the biters. Many owners usually geld biting stallions because they consider biting too dangerous and a serious disposition flaw.
Carrying an onion, pepper, or binaca blast is not BAITING a stallion to bite nor is carrying a stick with nails, it's just being ready with different methods to correct the known behavior when it happens. If he consistently nips at the lunge equipment, have it ready.
You have given some excellent advice on this site and shared some good knowledge, but please read the posts more carefully and think about your answers for a little while. I have seen many times where you have missed the essence of the question or reply and given sound advice/comments for a different situation or twisted someones reply into something it was not intended to be.
While some things are generally consistent, everyone is different with differing opinions. That's what helps everyone learn a little more. If you disagree with something, that's O.K. dispute it, but integrating insults and cheap shots at people, their situation, or their horses is only hurting yourself and your credibility and is not very professional.
Kelly (63.172.47.198)
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2001 - 11:07 am:
I will state for the last time, for anyone that has had a problem following my posts: A biting stallion MAY turn into a very real problem. I have suggested a number of methods for this behavior.
#1. Try not to pat and stimulate a stallion around the mouth area. Pats should be on the neck, treats should be given out of a bucket. Be aware of others who may have access to your animal, they may be esacerbating the problem.
#2. Correct a stallion on the side of the rib cage. Try not to smack or swing at their head, as this may stimulate the nipping reflex.
#3. If a stallion has progressed to the point that he bites and chews on everything in his reach, you may secure his mouth so he can not. Other methods are viable only when the stallion can be observed and corrected at the time that they occur. With the wire in place, while you are not in attendance, he can not chew or bite while tied etc. It can help them get over the reflex action and the desire to be mouthy. ( it can save a few lead ropes as well! )
#4. If a stallion is a consistant biter and persistantly after you, this is a more serious situation. A small piece of wood with one or two nails protruding from the end can work wonders. Place the piece directly in his way, when he encounters this unpleasant situation, he will soon learn to avoid it. Do not swing at him in any way, let him invite the correction.
#5. Vicki's suggestion of breath sprays such as Bianca is very effective, especially in public situations . I have carried them at shows to discourage a young nervous horse from starting a bad habit.
#6. Most importantly, correct the behavior and then respond to your stallion with mutual and respectful kindness.
The progession from a nippy, playful colt to a biting, and therefore dangeruos stallion CAN be quick and quite a problem. I have seen the gambit from the spoiled pet, to stallions on their way to the killers because of this behavior. I am happy to say that particular stallion never made it to the killers!
Stallions do masterbate. This is a fact, not my opinion. They can and do materbate to ejaculation, it is not neccessary for them to mount anything to achieve this. They "rub" and "thump" on their belly for stimulation. It is self gratification, not merely a show or display to the other stallions. If you have been around the number of stallions that I have, you will know this. Once again, this is normal. I do not allow my stallions to do this while in a working situation. It will count against them in a competitive situation, and obviously is a sign that they are not thinking about work! It is a bit like taking a flasher into a crowded resturant....not a welcomed sight!! If you have seen or been in many halter classes, you can understand why in a boring situation, many stallions may decide to "entertain" themselves. They must learn that this behavior is for "private" time only!
I have faith that the majority of the readers of this site have a good understanding of the information given here. If not, I am confident that they will ask more questions.
As for you comments Mr. Noble Knight, I stand by my opinion that putting a hot potato on your shoulder and standing beside a fence, waiting for a stallion to come up and bite you, while pretending to not notice, is "baiting a stallion into biting" and should not be done under any circumstance. If you find that observation a personal attack, I suggest that you re read my posting with a less defensive demeanor. As for my credibility and professionalism, my winnings and titles stand on their own and are by no means effected by your personal opinion.
I have to agree with Kelly. I would pick, 'nose pinching or clamping' ANY day than KICKING a horse. What the HECK is THAT?? I hope you have people there to help YOU when he decides to kick YOU back.
I use nose clamping too. VERY effective in keeping them quiet AND they get the idea. They think for a split second or two...HEY, I can't breathe! And stop this silly behavior. And YOU release the nose and praise him. It takes PATIENCE and repetition. MY stallion is NOT vocal. The ONLY time he is permitted to be so is during breeding or out in his paddock. Him being a Hannoverian, I would assume he will either be a Dressage horse, Jumper, or something along the lines? I have a Holsteiner stallion. These guys get BIG and quick. You need to nip this NOW. As Kelly said, it WILL only get worse. The WORSE thing I see at the Dressage shows are obnoxious, moronic stallions. Squealing, calling, yelling, bouncing all over, and snorting like maniacs ...their erect penis flailing about for all to see. NO THANK YOU. I'd take manners over "a stallion that is vocal, spirited, and with carriage when encountering mares is a beautiful thing". That has NO place at a show. It irritates other competitors and just upsets the show grounds in general. And as a VERY intelligent person told me...if you bludgeon a stallion, or get physical ...they WILL fight back. How do they fight in the wild? TO THE DEATH. Warmbloods ARE sensitive...they ARE late in their maturity there for repetition is KEY. I don't mean maturity as far as stallion behavior though. If he does try to go up, shove his shoulder HARD (don't slap, poke, or whip) to the right (away from you). Unless he is THE most balanced animal alive, he will put those fronts BACK on the earth. Tell him he's a good boy...WHEN they stay there. I agree in stallions needing mare exposure. My stallion is turned out in a 1.5 acre paddock every few days with the larger mare paddock around that one. Yes, its 3 board with hot wire. Does he act like a ninny? No, he does not. He grazes quietly and only calls if his 'girls' are out of sight. I've seen it before, you get stallions with NO mare contact at shows, and its like a mare smorgasbord. A kid in a candy shop...CHRISTMAS...you get the idea. Just BAD news in general. I am ALL for group lessons with stallions too. I started my guy out @ 3 1/2 in group lessons with up to 8 horses in the ring (himself included). Now when we go to shows, warm ups are NOT big deal. If they are not prepared for the oblivious young rider who just trotted their pretty mare right in front of his nose, or the other one that flung her tail as she scooted over to about a foot away from him when she went by (OBVIOUSLY in heat and telling him so), he is going to be DIFFICULT at shows. And ANOTHER thing a friend told me, keep your breeding EXTREMELY routine. My guy has a different halter, the chain which normally goes under his chin, now goes over, I tape his front feet (hey...phantom covers rip!), and he goes out the BACK barn door (the ONLY time he goes out the back.), and we breed in the SAME area EACH time. Sorry for rattling...I just wanted to add a bit.
Stallions are VERY oral. My guy will still try me every now and then...and I suspect they ALL will. I've found pinching his neck (between shoulder and neck) to be VERY effective. He is REALLY a sissy and HATES it. It is also what he would get from a more 'dominating' horse as a correction. Or a kick, but I won't kick him. You can try carrying a little bottle of the Bitter Apple stuff with you. Keep it nonchalant and squirt his mouth when he goes for 'what ever it is' this time. Yes, you ARE little and he IS big. But with proper traing, consistancy, repitition you could have a spectacular Dressage prospect on your hands. How old did you say you were? Why do you think your trainer was wrong in steering you toward buying one? If you weren't comfortable, I would have told them that. My instructor is super. If you TELL him you are not comfortable with something, he is FINE with it...and HAPPY I said so. (hasn't happened with US yet, but I read it in an interview in Dressage Today. :o) They do say that nice stallions make brilliant gelding. I HATE the term phrase myself, and unless your stallion is a vicious brute, I see no reason to geld him. You just need to be VERY firm about his mouthiness. There aren't any 'debates'. Absolutely NEVER can they touch ME with their mouth.
Stallions are VERY oral. My guy will still try me every now and then...and I suspect they ALL will. I've found pinching his neck (between shoulder and neck) to be VERY effective. He is REALLY a sissy and HATES it. It is also what he would get from a more 'dominating' horse as a correction. Or a kick, but I won't kick him. You can try carrying a little bottle of the Bitter Apple stuff with you. Keep it nonchalant and squirt his mouth when he goes for 'what ever it is' this time. Yes, you ARE little and he IS big. But with proper traing, consistancy, repitition you could have a spectacular Dressage prospect on your hands. How old did you say you were? Why do you think your trainer was wrong in steering you toward buying one? If you weren't comfortable, I would have told them that. My instructor is super. If you TELL him you are not comfortable with something, he is FINE with it...and HAPPY I said so. (hasn't happened with US yet, but I read it in an interview in Dressage Today. :o) They do say that nice stallions make brilliant gelding. I HATE the term phrase myself, and unless your stallion is a vicious brute, I see no reason to geld him. You just need to be VERY firm about his mouthiness. There aren't any 'debates'. Absolutely NEVER can they touch ME with their mouth. Kelly is right, though their heads ARE beautiful, scratch a favorite spot on the neck instead of face petting. It IS tempting to play with their faces, especially young ones. But I guarentee the ONLY thing going through his head is, oooh just a little bit closer...and I've GOT her. They do like to play and to test. They aren't thinking awwww...she's SO sweet to be rubbing my head like that. They are waiting for you to drop your guard to get in a 'test nibble'. Any way...good luck.
I don't see ANY where that Kelly insulted peoples' horses. Its blatantly CLEAR to me who has 'owned' stallions and who has just 'been around' them between the two of you. Kelly OWNS them and you can clearly SEE that. I hope you have catlike reflexes and can jump out of the way when you encounter a stud who realizes how small YOU are and kicks BACK.
Wouldn't you say though, that this argument is going NO where.
GREAT advice was given, and for YOU to slander anyone's reputation or professionalism, IS very unprofessional.
Wow, lets guess who has the most extensive collections of horse magazines and lives in a three story walk up in New Jersy or who owns, shows and breeds stallions for a living. Please cast your vote below;
The past discussion is crazy, wheres the moderator of this site? How long are we going to have to listen to Bad information, Disrespectful Postings, Belittling comments in addition to putting people at risk.
Several months ago I questioned information from an individual "username" Hores Pro and was chastised immediatley. I think he is working at a Knight job and has deemed himself Knoble. Come on Josh fix this and lets get back to an educational forum. I would much rather learn from this site, instead of have to follow the rantings of a wannabe!! baskalisk@worldnet.att.net
BarnTroll (209.217.137.167)
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2001 - 04:45 pm:
I have read many of the suggestions that Kelly had made on this site, and have found them thoughtful and helpful. I personally have never felt that she was insulting to anyone, quite the contrary, she is most often insulted by people like you. She obviously knows what she is talking about. It is too bad that you do not feel that if someone does not agree with your opinion, they have nothing valid to say. Why be threatened by her knowledge? I for one welcome and look forward to her responses. Furthermore, my vet has backed up most all of her suggestions. Beyond that, I find that her experience in the show arena is a plus when dealing with behavioral problems. I have to agree with her again, I handle stallions on a daily basis, and her observations are right on track. I would never consider turning my self into a free buffet at Luby's with putting vegetables of all kinds on my shoulder. Besides that, you have some interesting opinions, please do not veer off the subject with some personal vendetta.
Besides the fact that Horse Pro always uses the same screen name (given to him by his granddaughters), I know him quite well from another board & am very familiar with his writing style. Horse Pro definitely has not posted in this thread.
I was somewhat surprised to hear your malignment of him after reading your comment,
"The past discussion is crazy, wheres the moderator of this site? How long are we going to have to listen to Bad information, Disrespectful Postings, Belittling comments in addition to putting people at risk."
Horse Pro is far from being a wannabe yet he would be the first person to say he is not an expert (tho I would heartily disagree). He is also one of the first to offer his experience & wisdom to help others whenever he can. He certainly doesn't need me to defend him but I couldn't, in good conscience, read what was posted & not respond.
While I'm not disputing your experience with stallions, Noble Knight, I will say that the first time I heard about the hot potato method was many years ago in, I think, one of the Walter Farley Black Stallion books. I haven't heard the method recommended since then (as far as I can remember). Tho I do see, in theory, how it might work, I also wouldn't consider using it as a corrective measure. What if you (or I) miscalulate or don't move quick enough, & instead of the potato, that stallion bites a chunk out of your flesh? No thanks, I'd rather not risk it.
As Kelly mentioned, stallions do, in fact masturbate. According to Sue McDonnell, PhD, founder of the Equine Behavior Program at U Penn School of Veterinary Medicine, "Free-running & pastured stallions, regardless of age (newborn to aged), sociosexual environment, bachelor or harem status, or species (zebra, donkeys, Przewalski horses, or horses), exhibit periodic spontaneous erections and penile movements at the rate of about one three-minute episode every 90 minutes. Ejaculation is rare. The rate is the same for domestic stallions regardless of breed, type of housing, type and level of work, sociosexual environment, breeding status, androgen levels, libido, or fertility. Similar periodic erections are common to all mammals studied, including humans. This phenomenon appears to be normal, healthy, and necessary."
Kelly (63.172.47.204)
Posted on Friday, August 31, 2001 - 03:20 pm:
We are very fortunate to have this forum with which to share information. It is sometimes a difficult thing to have our opinions criticized. One must remember that it is the information, not the individual that is the focus of the debate. Either the facts stand on their own merit, or they do not. After all, no one of us invented any of these observations and methods. We are merely sharing the knowledge that was passed on to us!Let's get back to sharing.
Thank you Vicki! She is correct, If I post, which I have not in this thread untill now. I always use the same screen name and my e-mail address is always available. Anyone who wishes to question me, may feel free to do so. However please refrain from including me in something I had nothing to do with.
There's a lot of good and bad information in this thread. One would think it's up to the reader to figure out which, is which. Anyone foolish enough to attempt some of the things suggested. Will probably only attempt it once.
HP
Noble Knight (206.157.249.122)
Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2001 - 12:06 am:
Contrary to "Knows a little to", I am not Horse Pro but thanks for the compliment. I usually do agree with him and also miss seeing his contributions. Sorry to hear you were chastised for your remarks/beliefs.
Barntroll, I do agree with your position of Kelly's knowledge and helpfulness. I also look forward to her remarks but I do stand by my comments. Read the posts and see how many times "screaming", "loud", "obnoxious", "undesirable" stallion comments there are, even when not discussed, since I stated my stallions are vocal but well behaved. If this is not an inference to me, well just call me defensive.
Vicki, thanks for sharing the info. I really didn't consider a few flexations to be masturbating but I guess it is classified as such. I considered ejaculation to be masturbating and have only seen it once and very few times have I seen stallions do more motions than a few belly bops, especially outside of the breeding season.
As far as the hot potato issue, I learned this from an old horseman that was breeding/raising horses before the turn of the century (1890's). I'm sorry for possibly misleading people by not being more specific with the explanation. This horse would bite the owner in the shoulder over the fence while he performed normal activities. Knowing this, in the normal routine around feeding time I stood by the fence only this time with a hot potato. Some people would prefer to put it on a stick,but this boy wouldn't bite if you had anything in your hand because he had been whipped and/or beaten after biting.
Kelly (63.172.47.208)
Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2001 - 11:33 am:
ANY stallion of any breed that is "vocal" when not in a breeding situation, I consider obnoxious. I personally feel that a screaming stallion is loud and undesirable at my ranch or in a competitive situation. I would suggest to ANYONE that ownes or handles a stallion to discourage such behavior. It is a problem that occurs with stallions and can be curtailed quite well.
Many handlers do not know how to stop this activity, and it is very unpleasant in the show arena or during daily life around the barn. My comments are aimed at stallion owners who may hope to show or sell their stallions for performance animals. When given the opportunity to buy a quite stallion over a "vocal" ( loud & obnoxious ) one, most people will consider the quiet stallion an advantage. By controlling this impulse, a stallion owner may be increasing their chances for a higher selling price as well as a more peaceful equine experience.
Kelly your point in your last post is well taken when one considers the breed and sport your horses are involved in. However to make a blanket statement about all stallions of all breeds. While it may well be your preference that they are silent in all but breeding situations. This Is simply not the case in (all) breeds and it’s not the result of poor stallion training or handling.
Case in point, visit nearly any major thoroughbred stallion station in KY, CA, FL, NY, etc. You will see this behavior exhibited and no particular attention paid to it, by those who are responsible for these often multi million dollar stallions. To attempt to prevent this behavior would be viewed as needless by those involved with these animals. These people are not amateurs, they are some of the finest professional horse people in the world. I’m not speaking out of hand here, these animals have been a daily part of my life for many years and while I have found it annoying from time to time. I have never, nor do I intend to ever attempt to stop it. They are breeding stallions who are charged with the task of producing the ultimate performance horses and it’s in their nature to be vocal. It has no bearing or their value or that of their offspring.
JMHO and a differing point of view.
I will say this about the original post in this thread. Rearing is not acceptable behavior and should be stopped by whatever means needed. If it cannot be corrected. Professional assistance should be sought out to solve the problem. Since all stallion situations are unique. I seriously doubt that any such problem could be corrected with anything other than a hands on approach. Certainly not on the Internet. To attempt to do so, IMHO is an engraved invitation to disaster.
Thought you guys might think it funny that I knew a stallion by the name of John Holmes (a nick name well earned) that was so well endowed that he would put his front feet close together, move his back feet up underneath himself and masturbate between his forarms. His stall absolutely stank (anyone that has smelled rotten semen can relate). Never did cure him- he's now a gelding.
In terms of the stallion behavior issue, I am a firm beleiver that a disciplined stallion is a happy one (just like children, dogs...). People's opinions of what is acceptable varies (vocal or quiet), but as long as the stallion is not spoiled from the start he is much better off.
Kelly (63.172.47.183)
Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2001 - 07:13 pm:
Most people are not involved in a strictly breeding situation. Amatuers that are breeding one stallion, or raising a stallion for their own use, would best be served by not allowing this behavior. The vocalization is often a precursor to other stallion like behavior that a non professional should be aware of. The breed of the stallion is of no consequence.
Once again, I will reiterate, for people that want to SHOW their stallions in a performance class, or hope to sell a young stallion for this purpose, do not allow uneccessary vocalization when not in a breeding situation. Unless your stallion is on his way to a breeding station, with no other purpose in mind, I would behoove you to curtail this behavior.
It is also a detriment if you need to board such a stallion at a public boarding stable. Many will not accept a stallion at all, and a noisey one will certainly be discouraged. It takes a bit more effort, but in the end will be worth it. It does not in anyway effect the breeding ability of a stallion, it just makes the whole experience more pleasant.
Kelly your clarification is well taken and I have no argument with your analysis of the situations you described. However based on your heretofore described experience with stallions, be it professionally or as an amateur. I think you would agree. Techniques to correct this type of behavior, could in the wrong (inexperienced hands) produce less than desirable results. In fact could prove to create more problems.
Perhaps when describing the techniques it would be wise (for the sake of the novice) to offer the possible negative results, if the techniques are applied incorrectly. For instance, pinching nostrils closed to gain compliance. Can easily result in being struck by a front hoof. From a stallion who does not appreciate his airway being restricted. The act of pinching off the nostrils certainly puts one in a fairly compromised position. You must admit that stallions in particular are fairly accomplished with the use of their front feet for defense, or not infrequently offense.
JMHO
HP
Kelly (63.172.47.225)
Posted on Tuesday, September 04, 2001 - 10:17 pm:
HP- People that do not know enough to stand to the side of any horse while working on, or correcting them, should not be in contact with a stallion. I have stated numerous times in numerous posts that stallion handling is a serious thing that should not be taken for granted. Everyone should be aware that stallions can and are capable of quick and sudden reactions.
I explained that it should be used in a quick pinch and release motion to teach the stallion what to expect at first. It really is not that big of a problem, but I understand that you do not work on this particular problem around your Thoroughbred farm, so are not familar with this technique. I have employed this with countless numbers of horses, mares, colts, geldings and stallions. It works well for a number of situations and is no more dangerous than any other technique improperly applied. Common sense is something that I can not impart in a post. I believe that to cover all possibilities of negative responses is an insult to the readers as well as an impossible task. Suffice it to say, if you do not know that your stallion can paw, strike, kick or bite, get rid of him. Stallion training is not for rank amateurs.
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2001 - 01:44 pm:
Kelly I am familiar with the technique, as well as many others that I choose not to use for reasons of common sense. It would be extremely difficult to avoid the front feet of a striking stallion, no matter where you stand if you are holding their nose. Perhaps you have never seen a horse strike out to the side. I have, and with some stallions reaching easily 17 hands and above. Their reach is considerable. My post was not meant to be antagonistic. It was out of genuine concern that someone may attempt such a technique, not anticipating the potential negative response. I have a great deal of experience with QH stallions, both race bred and show performance and I can tell you that for the most part they are generally far more tractable than many TB or Warmblood stallions. Because of that they may very well respond to the techniques you describe. However I would not recommend the same technique on all other breeds.
JMHO
HP
Kelly (63.172.47.206)
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2001 - 02:49 pm:
I just can not in good conscience agree with you. Sorry. I have extensive experience with many stallions of ALL breeds. It matters not what breed they are. Size matters only when attempting to out power an individual. I recommend timing and preparation, especially when dealing with a stallion.
For the final time, anyone that is handling a stallion of any breed, and is not aware that a stallion can stike, paw, bite or kick should not have one.
TB or Warmblood, QH or Arabian, stallion behavior is stallion behavior. It is all in the technique and how one approaches and applies it.
Anyone that would actually hold a stallions nose shut until they paw or strike should not be around a stallion. As with any method, it must be understood to work. Once the horse has learned that the pinch is released for any compliance, it may then be applied to deter vocalization.
I suggest that you read the post by Mary, she has a Warmblood stallion and has used this technique with great success.
Like I have stated before, I have well behaved stallions of all ages, it helps to start early. If anyone reading these posts is afraid of their stallion, or if the stallion is totally out of hand, get professional help.....or get rid of the stallion.
Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2001 - 12:37 am:
OK At the end of the day the logical thing to do is what your most comfortable with, considering your ability to handle your own animal. I don't believe there's any thing wrong with the breathing restriction method, if you dont realize a horse can paw you don't touch it. It's obvious IMHO that kelly did not advocate a WWF Sleeper Nose Hold for correction, after all any thing is better than the (circa 1890) one hundred twelve year old hot potato trick.
Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2001 - 12:38 pm:
Well HP...I have a Holsteiner stallion that I use the nose pinch on. He has NEVER struck out. Warmbloods aren't ogres, unless you allow them to become thus. Its not like we are saying to completely STOP the air flow. Just a squeeze release. Its a great attention getter and they learn quick to be more aware of YOU than whatEVER else it is that's getting them going. And really, one WOULD have to be a twit to stand in harms way while correcting any horse. Where DOES one stand safely out of harms way to kick a horse? Just curious. I have long legs, but not nearly as long as a stallion reaching over 17 hands. And they won't retaliate any worse from a wiffle bat? Hmmm. One must wonder. THANK you Knows a little too...not like Kelly said 'clamp until they stagger from lack of air.' I believe she said, "squeeze, release".
CC (216.189.1.27)
Posted on Friday, December 28, 2001 - 11:36 pm:
Hello.. I am new here and just read this whole long line of what I consider a "Slandering discussion". It is funny how everyone thinks they can handle stallions, but not each other. After all.. horses are just animals, what's your excuse? The further I read, the more I envisioned snubby, snotty, uppitty, rude, and OVER sensitive people. I'm not taking sides, I think ALMOST ALL of you acted childish. My first instinctual feelings towards all of this was to not follow ANYONE's advice! You have all accomplished the task of making me afraid of using ANY of your advice! Why would I want to use techniques from people who can not behave themselves? I don't care WHAT qualifications you have... if you act disrespectful or stupid towards another human being, I have NO respect for you, and your advice is just MUSH! I really hope and would like to see you all act better towards each other! Making snide remarks and spamming CAPS towards each other are harmful and should be used with caution. I'll give a horsey suggestion, just so this post isn't veared as irrevelant... Try to understand your horses. Treat them like fellow living creatures, not a dollar sign. Be open minded to advice, but not limited to just a few things. Try out different techniques that make you feel comfortable with YOUR horse. Every horse is unique, just like every human is unique. You know your horse better than anyone else, nomatter how many they've had. You are the owner, guardian, parent... whatever. You decide how you are going to train, raise, teach, tutor, YOUR horse. You have to make your own gameplan. Please everyone.. this is an open discussion board! Everyone has their own opinions and should not be talked down to, or sneered at for making a suggestion. Everyone has a right to beable to freely say what works for them within the rules and moderation of the board. If you don't like it, do not make snide comments! Give others the chance to beable to think for themselves and be peaceful about it. If you think a suggestion made by another person is harmful, then send a post explaining "WHY" you think it could be harmful "WITHOUT" slamming, or sniding that person. Be NICE and CALMLY try to get them to understand why you feel that way WITHOUT being RUDE! I enjoyed the advice from everyone on the board... it was nice to get a variety, but the cruel remarks were AWEFUL and took the fun out of it for me! Do not put horses in a "box". They are so much more colorful than anyone can predict them to be! If they were all robots, where would the fun be in that? Showing them would certainly not be fun! LOL! I think it takes a variety of advice to beable to make things work best for you and your own horses! I hope everyone is nicer after this post! I really do! Please no more "I SAID THIS!!" "I SAID THAT!!", or "I'm right and YOUR wrong!" PLEASE!
Have a happy new year!
CC
John Montgomery (164.221.194.4)
Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 10:00 pm:
Am I too late for this discussion? Not to be rude, but I noticed this personal behavior from many horse trainers and breeders. I'd like to ask the same questions again, and ask for your discription of the training of a specific stallion. And why each of you chose a specific course of action with a specific horse; both successes and failures. Your emotions, experiences, and gut feelings all seem to be very important. I'd like to start.
I'm by no means professional. I had a two year old filly when younger that was very badly behaved. She kicked, attacked people, and did many disrepectful things. I suspect my parents, trainer, and I all contributed to this. We fed her out of our hands, I pretty much did nothing to stop her from having her own way, and our poor trainer was left with a monster at the end of the day. She threw me once, and kicked me once, but she never did bite. Still I was never afraid of her. I even cried a little when we had to sell her. I went on to still have many friends with horses, and was especially impressed by the behavior of the geldings and stallions at events and in seeing them day in and day out. I went on to take horsemanship in college, but left after only the first quarter to go into the military (there was a very short lived war at the time, but that's another story). I was stationed in Spain, and immediately made friends with a member of the Spanish army, Antonio Nino, that loved dressage, and got a very well trained 12 year old mare that was always willing to do anything I asked. I thought I know everything (I went to college, you know). At that time Antonio was a groom at a small stud run by the army, and he tried to explain the care they needed as individuals. There were three stallions standing there. I never had any problems behaviorally with that horse, but I pushed her too far riding and she ended up with bowed tendons when I was done. From there I went to Virginia and had three horses and a donkey. The first was a yearling stud. He was at all times while handled a gentleman and never met a stranger, just like every animal on that farm. He was never gelded, although he did once break out of his paddock to get to his mother. She was in heat at the time, so we don't know if he was after that or because he missed mama. We suspected the first. Another yearling colt had to be gelded right away, since he began to strike at people, bite, and through fits to get to the mares. Another never even dropped by the age of two exept to have it cleaned by his owner. He seemed to have no idea what it was for or have any interest in mares at all, and he certainly had absolutely no bad habits. All of these horses had exactly the same handling, from exactly the same people. Incidentally mine hated to have his penis handled, but the others loved it. There was absolutely no difference in their enviornments I could see. Another was a 22 year old mare that died a month after I got her. All I can say is that she was very gentle during that time. The next was a jack. He knew what a mare in heat was, he only liked white mares though, but was very, very easy to handle. He had never been breed. Going to Florida, I had a two year old that was in foal when I got her. Once again very, very gentle, and superb for use at events. I got blue ribbons with her after she foaled. I got her from a neighbor that had a stallion. He didn't quite perform as well, but I rode him while my mare was pregnant, and side by side with mares and geldings with no problems at all. Both horses performed just as well side by side. He did call to her on occassion when tied up. He had the same erection discribed earlier at about dusk, right after feeding with the same dull look on his face. From personal experience I think this is during a time when he was nearly sleeping, or at least very relaxed. No indication at all to any of us that this was sexual. This one at first had a problem with having his sheath cleaned when he couldn't pee straight. I used experience from those earlier colts, and used a crop on his back leg whenever he kicked. It seemed to me to be about a two or three second delay between me getting out of the way and smacking him. After three times in the same session he stopped. Oh, that's all the time I have. My wife is coming to pick me up today. If Hannover is still listening, did you ever get him to stop rearing? If this was a little too informal, I apologize. I was just hoping to let this be personal for all of you and still get (maybe even give in a round about way) some useful tidbits of information to help form a healthy opinion on specific training methods. I hope you'll all do the same (O.K., maybe I got a little carried away.)
Anonymous (152.6.24.71)
Posted on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 12:27 pm:
This spring is my stallion's third breeding season, and he has started rearing up while mounting and pawing/boxing at the poor mare's back that he is tring to breed. What can I do to correct this problem? When he does this, I pull him off and make him start again, but he rear up again and boxes her or he paws her back legs while on the ground: He doesn't bite her tho. Am I going to have to put a pad on the mares to protect them? I would like to correct this behavior, but I don't know how. Why is he doing this? I appreciate any advise. Thank you.
Kelly (63.172.47.246)
Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 04:24 am:
I would suggest that you correct this behavior. Make the time in between his mounting and remounting a bit longer. Take him away and allow him to graze on the lead, or tie in his stall until he is quiet. If he is in the vicinty of the mare, he may build anxiety and become more aggressive towards her. He is in a hurry to cover his mare and resents having to slow down. Take him away from the breeding area and make him approach quietly. This may take some time, but will be well worth the effort.
He may need a chain around his nose, or a lip chain to discourage this behavior. A lip chain is very usefull amd will get his attention. Until this is under control, you should take steps to protect the mare from injury.
Are the mares hobbled? I have seen stallions act like this after a mare has attempted to kick them. He is being dominate and this behavior will escalate. Restrain the mares, slow him down and make sure that you have adequate control of him while breeding.
I had a problem with my stallion doing the same thing (pawing/boxing)I have used everything that Kelly suggested and a cold shower. As crazy as it sounds the cold shower does work.
One of the things that I also noticed with him is as long as I am reasonable and treat him with respect for what he is and constant in what I want, it does get better with age. :-D
My stallion is now 7 yrs old I don't have the breeding problems I once did. I also did something that most back yard breeders dont do. I got "professional help" to help me to breed my stud. He has his moments that he doesn't want to listen BUT for the most part I don't have alot of problems with him during breeding time.
I have a four year old quarter horse stallion that bit my mother twice today and she was just walking near him. I hate to geld him because he throws buckskin babies. I will not sell him. What should I do. He has been acting funny whenever people go around him. He will lay his ears back and try to kill whatever is closest to him. What should I do. Today I tied him up and made him stand as still as possible. I would crack my driving whip whenever he tried to paw, kick or chew his rope. After a while he started standing still. I started grooming him and then he tried to kick me. I am at a total loss. He never behaved like this before. We have a mare that foaled Friday but she is not in contact with him. He is in with a 32 year old Morgan mare to keep him company. What should I do. I tried pinching him like a twitch but it didn't work obviously. After he bit my mother she hit him as hard as she could on the cheek. I know this is a bad thing but it is the closest thing she could hit. After she hit him he didn't back off or anything, he reared up and charged her even more. What should I do. I heard the hot potato thing but don't trust is exactly. I would prefer not to put myself in the way of his teeth if at all possible. This boy is gorgeous and always has behaved until now. Somebody please help me.
Morgan, what I hear in your description is a stallion that is not respecting personal space and has, in fact, decided that the territory around the barn is "his" territory and he is now defending it.
While this might be in some senses normal from an instinctual perspective, it is totally unacceptable (to me, at least). I cannot afford to have stallions unilaterally deciding to declare an area "their" space around our farm. With six boys here full-time and regular visitors - as well as plenty of mares and geldings around - I'd never be able to keep track of who is claiming what space!
Your boy needs a serious discussion about the fact that he doesn't get to decide when he "owns" a given territory. All the horse whisperers of the world might keep on whispering, but when youngsters get like this around here I step in at once and end that discussion. After that, we can all interact positively and as friends. Respect, as they say, must flow both ways.
He is dangerous to be around until you get this discussion settled with him. Making him "stand still," as you have found out, is a recipie for disaster given his current emotional state. I'd suggest you get someone with some solid horse and stallion experience to come out and assist you with this.
Once he's understood this lesson, many other areas will improve and continue to be positive with him. I often see this "phase" with the young adolescents, and generally it is no big deal to get through if handled properly. However, if you let it continue it will only get worse with time.
Just as you'd step in at once with a mare who was getting very bossy and threatening around feeding time, now is the time to step in before your boy gets off on a bad track.
As to this thread in general, what strikes me most is the comments about "never trusting a stallion" and the "domination" obsession people seem to have. Perhaps some people never trust stallions because their stallions, in fact, never trust them? A stallion's trust is earned through honesty and respect (and love), and he is only trustworthy himself to the degree that he trusts his primary handler.
Stallions no more seek to "always dominate" than does any other horse. Some stallions are dominant; many others are quite happy to go along with the flow. Assuming all are horrible monsters is both inaccurate and likely to lead to self-fulfilling prophecies of problems and unhappiness.
Not all stallion issues are "simple," and I'd classifly Morgan's question as of the more complex type. However, once we understand things more from the stallion's perspective, we often find it more straightforward to manage and modify behavior. For folks new to stallions, this can seem difficult - just as it would be for someone new to dogs to learn how to train obedience.
Castrating a stallion who is well-behaved but for one minor problem here or there, when the problem could be solved with some more experienced help, is to me nothing short of cruelty. Just as I would not cut off a horse's tail of it got matted and dirty - rather, I would learn how to brush, clean, and maintain it properly - so I do not believe in cutting off bodyparts in lieu of learning how to properly manage a stallion. True, some stallions really are terrors, but these are so far in the minority. Far more often, it's simply a question of experienced handling, understanding, and empathy.
I confess that - as a new member - I found this thread hysterical (and I thought the pro and anti hunters on my hunting forum got stroppy!) but it is also fascinating reading the different views.
My RID stallion - at 12 - has a superb temperament (although a hell of a buck!) He is 'mouthy' and it's a minor nuisance - but I tend to block it rather than worry too much about it, although he IS hard on lead ropes when tied up.
But my view, I think, is the same as D.Sprink - who in a short time I have been reading I have decided is 'the stallion expert'! While I wouldn't trust my boy not to nip me if I was dozing, I certainly trust him not to kick me or do anything other than a bit of high jinks. And a stern word soon stops THAT! I don't want to dominate him - but I do require respect. 99% of the time I get it. I'm too old and decrepit to wrangle with a ratbag.
I've got geldings, mares and filly FOALS who try to dominate more than he does (thank goodness, as he's 17 hh and built like a tank) - and we're certainly friends (particularly when I bring food - or mares.)
My previous stallion I did have serious worries about - so I traded him for one I COULD handle safely, as I'm on my own most of the time. I couldn't stand the worry of a bad 'un!
T Hutson Posted From: 209.239.6.37
Posted on Friday, June 04, 2004 - 12:25 pm:
I read through this entire page and I think that Hannover probably still has the same question!!! While everyone was arguing it seemed that there were not many feasible solutions being given. As an intelligent person with a fair amount of common sense,I do not need to read the arguments about who is right or wrong. Most people should be able to take the advice they like and just forget the rest.
I have used the pinching the nose technique for other things but never for rearing because I believe that too many things could go wrong. I have also slapped my horse under the belly to make him stand still on the crossties.However I do not believe that either of these solutions would be effective or safe when it pertains to rearing. So to repeat the original question - What would you do with Hanover's colt?
I am interested in this because I have a 2 year old Dutch Warmblood colt that has done this occasionally. I believe that I might have the problem resolved but would be interested in hearing other solutions to this problem. My solution involved using a dog collar chain around the nose band of his halter attached together with a large ring that cannot slip back through the bottom ring on his halter. I know this is similar to putting the chain over his nose but I find this is much more effective and safer then that method. One reason is because pressure is placed evenly on the nose without pulling the halter sideways. The other reason is that a handler only has to clip the lead on the large ring connecting the dog chain instead of trying to pull the chain through all the loops of the halter to release the horse.( I had 2 fingers broken years ago because a horse bolted when I was trying to remove the chain that way and I never want it to happen again ) When he rears the punishment is immediate and seems to work very well. His rearing has nothing to do with being around mares. He is stabled in the same barn with our other horses and our grooming area is right across from one of our mares.
In fact he is generally extemely well behaved (right now he is flat out on his side sleeping in his paddock). He learned quite quickly to 'suck it up' when he was told and has not even dropped while being handled for about 2 months now.
I definitely do not plan on gelding him because his bloodlines are top of the show jumping world but would just like some sound advice to get through his 'teenage years' without causing or allowing any problem behaviour to arise.
This is not the first stallion that I have handled although it is the first that I am THE handler and I must admit it is nerve wracking when any horse rears, especially if they are big and their feet are way above your head. So I sympathize with you Hannover and would like to know if you ever did find a solution.
To D. Spink: I always enjoy reading your responses and definitely respect your opinion. My coach has said that maybe he should be gelded but I believe that if we can get past this 2 year old phase with consistency and respect that we will have an incredible horse. Do you have any suggestions about how to correct these problems ourselves?
Anonymous Posted From: 12.145.186.69
Posted on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 02:43 pm:
He may be conditioning himself and finding rearing as a game now. Put vicks in his nose when he walks out to the pasture and see if that helps
Barry Posted From: 64.110.199.194
Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 01:23 am:
As Frank from "Everybody Loves Raymond" would say "Holy Crap". This has been very interesting reading, lots of positive things brought forth and lots of negative things also. It really amazes me how people get very defensive and "snotty" when a opinion is offered that they don't agree with. If a horse nips,bites or kicks an "Alpha" mare what is her response? She will most likely return the favour but in a more aggresive fashion. I do not recommend beating a horse in any manner but the aggressor must be immediately reprimanded in a firm but humane manner. I have owned horse for forty years, and will say I have had my tests with different ones, I have kicked several in the bottom side of the belly with the arch (top) of my foot for improper behaviour of various types. Hiting a horse in the head area will only create a horse who is head shy. As for a horse who starts to lip, nip, I tap it lightly on the shin with the side my foot, they immediately react by lifting their foot as it is uncomfortable to them, this is done without force. But this must be done at the onset or it will become learned behaviour and much more difficult to correct at alater stage (biting). I presently have a two year old colt who thought rearing was great idea while on the lead, not so when I flipped him around and he went over on to his back. He literally laid there stunned, wondering what happened, I let him lay there until he was ready to get up, and when he did I just patted him down as if nothing happened. No sense getting all bent out of shape with him, he has never done it again and that was over six months ago. By the way for those who react in horror, this was in his paddock and the ground was soft. As far as the stallion who attacked the owners mother, and then tried to kick you after being tied in his stall, you have a serious problem, get professional help immediately!!! The next bite could be to the neck, a severed artery is not a good thing. The next victim may not be you or your mother but your biggest nightmare. The horse if it was mine would be gone immediately, just as there is some bad people in the world there are bad horses. Draw your own conclusions. As to those people who disagree with my tecniques, please do not waste the space on this site replying with you ranting and raving.
I have a four year old stallion I've just started training. For the most part he's well behaved but when I take him out into the arena he pays attention to the horses out in the further pastures and begins getting upset and sqealing for them. He is kept in a paddock beside the barn that is isolated from the other horses and is brought in at feeding time before the other horses and is the first to be taken out. This morning he was quite the handful to be taken out as the other horses were still in the barn and eating. What can I do to keep him calmer around the other horses and to encourage him to ignore them? I'd really like some experienced help here as I am planning to show him and want him to maintain his calm manner at all times. I don't want him to become bad mannered due to my inexperience with well mannered stallions. I have about 20 years of horse experience but this is the first stallion I've personally trained.
First, I would suggest that he not be isolated. This can promote nuerotic behavior in a stallion. See if you can find a gelding or younger colt that can be stabled next to him for companionship. He may squeal at first, but then settle to the companion.
After he is secure with his companion (touching through a panel of a secure fence is best) he can be tied neart others until he calms down. It may take you hours at first, but he will eventually give it up. Then move him to another standing area until he gives it up there. It will take many different places and many hours before he realizes that everything is not so exciting.This is just a starting point!
I have 10 stallions here, they are different ages, some are show horses. I understand your concerns and admire your willingness to ask these questions. Good luck with your project!
I hear a few of you poo pooing the "horse whisperers", but have you ever watched John Lyons ride his stallion (RIP - Zip) in a ring with no bridle with a mare in heat? That's my goal. I was bitten (fractured the bone over my eye) by a stallion that's show trainers would pinch his nose and other head punishment methods, he just learned to be a quicker biter and dodged away very fast once he hit you. I'd like to learn better ways. The horse is always faster and more observant than us. It is usually a matter of time before you learn how fast they can hit you, and how docile they can be right before that. I like the 3 second rule myself. No holds barred - act like your going to kill him then quit.
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