We have been breeding our 9 year old Paint racing Stud since we purchased him 6 years ago. He has always been termed an "aggressive breeder". He has a very high libido! We have worked with him extensively using repetition and corrections as needed. This season he has bit two of the mares we brought to his window to tease. He has never done this before and we are not sure how to go about addressing this situation. I have heard of using a leather collar to drape over the mares neck during breeding. Using this seems like a "temporary fix" to something that requires a more lasting solution. Has anyone out there experienced this sort of thing and what can be done about it? Thank you.
Kelly
Posted on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 02:05 pm:
First thing I would do is stop teasing with him. Try a teasing stud.
Next step would be to make sure that the mares are safe during breeding. You might want to use a thick padded blanket to protect them from his aggressivness.
It sounds like he is on his way to a more advanced behavior. I don't blame you for being concerned. I think that he is getting frustrated with the teasing process. Does he always get to breed after teasing? If not, that can explain his increasing anxiety level.
I think that it is worth a try. I never tease with my breeding stallion. He never suspects that he may be able to "talk " a mare into it. I present the mare in full standing estrus. Only then is he allowed to talk and breed. I have about 5 others that have been taught this same way. It makes for an easier and safer breeding season. Good Luck with him.
Scarlet Posted From: 66.222.61.67
Posted on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 12:33 am:
I need advice on handling/disciplining options for my 15 year old x-racer, Thoroughbred Stallion. He's been dropping in the presence of all other horses and I can't make him stop.
I will own him one year this coming fall and I purchased Harvey for C-circuit Hunter/Jumper competitions.
I'm in my thirties and have ten years experience owning horses. I purchased Harvey b/c he was so easy to handle, athletic, and brave over fences - not to mention a real looker.
Since the breeding season arrived this Spring along with show season, I've had my hands full!
Every show we have gone to, Harvey "drops," or gets so worked up by the mares around him that I have to remove him from the competition. One show he dropped and proceeded to breed the thin air, meanwhile bucking to get me off his back and we were removed from the class.
Fatigue only helps for so long. I can exercise him vigourously before a competition, I put Vic's Vapor Rub in his nostrils, I use Quitex a few hour before the competition, but at some point he ends up getting excited and I have to remove him from the ring.
My discipline measures have gone unnoticed by him. When he gets excited, his mind is so far gone, that he is unaware of where I am. A few times he's even turned and I thought he was going to try to mount me.
I use a chain over his nose, I crop his shoulder, I can crop his belly - I've even been so desperate as to crop "it," and he won't even flich! In fact, it seemed to arouse him more.
Help! I have a stallion with no manners. And I have a stallion that is giving good stallions a bad name.
Unfortunatley, like most stallions, Harvey has always spent most of his 15 years in a stall, alone. Never in a pasture to socialize.
I do not agree with this, and unfortunately, until our new barn and pastures are ready, this is still his situation at a local stable.
I think socialization would help - am I right? He obviously can not deferentiate between acting like a stud when other horses are around from just being with horses.
My dream would be to turn him out with some older mares to teach him some manners, but my current situation doesn't allow me that option.
My latest schooling with him has been to ride him up and down the mare pasture fenceline at the stable to instigate a show type environment and when he drops himself, I wrap him in the shoulder with the crop, give a firm NO! and also wrap him under his belly with my heals. Eventually he'll take himself back up, but it takes forever and inevitably he drops it again - all the while screaming to the pasture horses.
I'm not ready to give up on this guy and I'm not ready to geld him. But I am willing to put the time into helping him achieve more acceptable behavior.
The stable owners adore him b/c he's so relaxed to be around and I enjoy him as well and he's been a dream to work with over fences and on the flat. But he's been a nightmare to take out of the stable.
I regards to Scarlet's challenges with her boy Harvey I do have some ideas. First off, it's going to take patience as he is older and has likely had this sort of behavior for some time on the track which was not channeled into a more appropriate expression.
Your instincts are saying that this is a "breeding problem," in that he is exhibiting breeding behavior around horses of all types, not just mares. Teaching him better breeding manners and procedures would, by this way of thinking, help him to understand that not all of life is breeding. While there is some truth to this, I'd take a different philosophical approach.
You say that you've purchased him as a prospective hunter/jumper competitor which means that he's in training for those disciplines. It is his training - and his work ethic during training - that I believe can be the keystone for teaching him better habits. After all, not only is his arousal frustrating for you (to say the least), it is VERY frustrating for him. Poor guy is always getting himself all worked up in the wrong situation, and again and again not getting bred. So when we are able to explain to him that shows (and training) aren't breeding situations, he'll be much happier since he won't get himself in an amorous, unrequited frenzy so often.
His fundamental cognitive tool for figuring this out is the "work ethic" that you ask of him when you have him under saddle and in training. It's pretty easy for him to know when he is "in training" in this way: he has his tack on, you are on his back, you are using your leg to guide him, etc. During these times, he's not really supposed to be thinking about breeding. This isn't a hard concept, really: stallions aren't expected to be breeding all hours of the day in herd situations, after all. There has to be time for eating, sleeping, drinking, running from predators, etc.! For your boy, working under saddle is a situation like that, rather than a time to be thinking of breeding.
Incidentally, with young (warmblood) stallions, this distinction is quite easy for them to understand. You can almost hear them thinking: "oh, well we are under saddle again and I NEVER get to 'have fun' while under saddle <sigh> gee, well, I guess I might as well concentrate on my aids, lateral movements, etc. since breeding will come later and not during working sessions."
With your older boy, it will take more patience for him to come to this conclusion himself. It is not possible (nor kind nor respectful nor moral) to FORCE him to understand this; he must simply make the connection himself. Alot of this connection will come from his respect and caring for you and your leadership skills with him. The more he gets to know you and trust you, the more he'll be willing to hear you say (using aids, words, and your emotional state) "sorry, big guy, but this isn't a breeding situation so put that thing away for now and let's concentrate on getting some good flatwork in today ok?"
Note that taking an overtly confrontational stance with him will likely make this situation WORSE. Simply put, if you are confronting him directly about this behavior he may well (understandably) think the following thing: "hmm, well she keeps confronting me when I try to get ready to breed all these wonderfully interesting horses around here. . . I bet she knows something I do not know and that she is planning to take over this herd and shut me out of the breedings. . . I better stand up for myself and make sure I get my fair share!" Yes, stallions do think like this and whether you are a horse or human, male or female, this line of thought will occur to them.
In contrast, if you approach him with your training and his work ethic as the primary objective, you aren't challenging him about the breeding issues but rather "changing the subject" and asking him to talk with you about his work as a ridinghorse and not a stallion. Once he starts to listen to your riding aids and become engaged in the process of working with you as a ridinghorse, he'll naturally think less and less about breeding issues - and he won't feel in conflict with you about breeding privileges at all. You are his PARTNER when the two of you are riding together well, not an adversary and not a rival for breeding priveliges.
This sort of work-ethic training starts in an environment where you can work him undersaddle in a quiet place away from other horses. Build some positive HABITS doing this - some procedures that the two of you know and understand as you begin your under saddle work. Some warmup exercises, asking him to come into the bit, etc. Then when he is working you are both focused on the work and he's being your partner in your undersaddle work and not a stallion thinking about breeding.
Gradually, you can extend out the boundaries of where he can focus on his work and not on breeding thoughts. Once he is happy working with you alone, bring along another (boring) horse, hopefully one he knows pretty well to do some undersaddle work at the same time. He'll be excited at first; just ignore it and ask him to do his work, as you normally would. If he can't focus, have the other horse there only for a while and then the other horses leaves and you go back to your under saddle work. Over time, you will be able to build up more and more confidence in the procedures you and he have to focus on work while under saddle.
Remember also that, to a stallion (and to most men <laughs>), things that are new are automatically more exciting than things already known. A ring full of four new horses is much more interesting than a ring with four horses we've known for a long time (unless all four are mares in standing heat, of course). Thus, the hardest thing to do with our working stallions is to take them to shows with tons of new, exciting horses all over the place and ask them to focus on work and not socialization.
Nonetheless, it is surprisingly easy to help our stallions understand that show's aren't for breeding and there are many hundreds or thousands of stallions all over the world that are aggressive breeders in the breeding shed in the morning and then perfect gentlemen at ringside in the afternoon, surrounded by mares and geldings and other stallions left and right. It's all about good habits and understanding built from consistency and respect for them as horses and as stallions.
If you are fairly new with the training needed for hunter/jumper work under saddle, I'd not be surprised if he finds it hard to work this out only with you. A more experienced rider can communicate to him more clearly with aids in saddle that we are asking for work and not just random movement. That's been my experience, in any case.
I tip my hat to you for showing the patience and desire to work through these issues with your boy in a positive way. So many "horsemen" have one miscommunication issue with a stallion and they are all the sudden calling their vet wondering if the horse can be castrated that evening! Good thing that ovarectomies aren't simple surgery, as every lazy "trainer" that had a problem with a mare would be doing that to "fix" whatever miscommunication happened.
I really suspect that your obvious caring and respect for your boy will show the path towards understanding for both of you. He doesn't want to be "bad," and he sure doesn't want to get excited about breeding all the time only to be let down and frustrated in the end. When you can communicate to him some of the "facts of life" about horse shows and training, he'll be much more at peace in understanding how to fit into this new way of living in a smooth, happy way.
We have five stallions in our barn right now, and all are regularly at shows in addition to their breeding duties; they range in age from 3.5 years to 11 years age. All have different presonalities, but all learned with very little need for "corrections" or nastiness that shows are for showing and not for breeding!
Here are some quite beautiful photos of one of the stallions, Capone I, who I have trained in competition and on the ground. This is his second Grand Prix competition, he is 7 years old. This show was in early June, in the middle of the breeding season. During the five days of the show (Thurs - Sun), we collected him three times for emergency breedings for clients! He has a quite high libido and ground collects easily for me, but also turns around and shows in crowded environments no problem:
Scarlet I agree with D. Spink's recommendation. One added point if he continues to drop you can do one of two things have someone on the ground with a squirt bottle filled with very cold water and squirt him in the genitals when he drops.. you can even use ice cubes if the person is a good aim.
If your not riding him you use the squirt bottle
The other issue really is are you planning on using this boy for breeding.. if not then would consider gelding him even at his later age ; talk with your vet if this is the route you wish to take. Gelding older stallions is done and with care is succesful
good luck
TX Breeder Posted From: 199.3.209.82
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 08:55 pm:
Another key point ,in addition to D. Spinks very sound advice, is to bore him. As you have noticed, he is excited at "new" changes. These changes can be anything from a ride away from his daily paddock routine to a show. Take time to change his riding partners as well as where and when he is tied or ridden.Once he is quiet being tied in different places ,near different horses,at differing times, then ride him.Let him discover that it is all not soooo exciting. If you have the time to do this, it will work. This may encompass taking him to shows and letting him stand untill he is bored. Training is sometimes knowing when NOT to do something.I have spent many an hour not riding and instead just waited them out. It is best that he comes to this conclusion on his own without confrontation from you.
TX Breeder Posted From: 199.3.209.82
Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 09:00 pm:
PS. Try a small donkey as a stable mate. I had an Arabian stallion sent to me for breeding. He was isolated at the stable him came from and was never socialized. I put the donkey {gelding) in the run next to him where they could visit through the fence panels.(4x4 squares} It was wonderful, he licks his donkey through the panels and has stopped pacing and acting like a fool in his pen. He has also gained weight for the first time during breeding season. Your stallion needs to have contact with a non-threatening animal.
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