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Jos, IgG test questions please! Or anyone who can help.

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Foaling and Immediate Post-foaling Issues » Jos, IgG test questions please! Or anyone who can help. « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Jamie Mix
Weanling
Username: Jmstar74

Post Number: 29
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 10:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

my friends mare foaled a week ago tonight, (Thurs at around 9 pm)The colt did not nurse well until 12+ hours after foaling, we bottle fed some to get it in him but would not latch on well. Finally got him nursing well at around 3 the next afternoon but told the vet to make sure and do an IgG on him. I asked hm this on Fri while I was there. He did not pull it until Late Sat. and called them with the results LAST NIGHT to tell them he is LOW and will need a plasma trans, which he is doing today. This time line does NOT jive with me. IgG is to be pulled in the first 12 with the results in the 1st 24 am I correct? This way if a transfer is needed it can be done in the 1st 48, or are my time lines off? I have only dealt with one FPS foal and the vet did not administer enough colostrum did not do the IgG in time and was septic and died in less than 48 hrs.

Colt is up and alert, eating well and running and playing. But did not tell them what the IgG was when he called. Am I overreacting, or does this time line make sense to you guys????
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3236
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 11:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jamie, I always get the IGg done within 12 hrs, so that giving colostrum supplement can still be done in 24. Probably if you bottle fed him he's fine, i can't imagine having to do a transfusion at a week old...never heard of that! My vet pulls blood and does IGg within 5 minutes at my farm....and even the one time she had to send it off (she was out of tests), she called the same day to let m eknow results. If he's eating, adn acting fine, i think the IGg at this point is a waste of time, but that's just me b/c I've never heard of it being done this late. I'd be downright PISSED at that vet for falling back on the job!! If that foal needed something done, he needed it in the 1st 24 hrs, not a week later.
 

Jamie Mix
Weanling
Username: Jmstar74

Post Number: 30
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 12:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well..... I had my friend call the vet back and get the IgG results.... 110 is the value. How in the heck is this foal still up and around???? Nursing, and in good shape not depressed and a full week old tonight. He is doing a plasma trans this afternoon. I am very lost and quite confused on this colt! Can an IgG be done incorrectly??????
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2671
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 05:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jamie, my very first foal I had was tested at 3 days old. Not a good thing to do.

I knew it wasn't good to test this late, I would call him and he'd say he'd be there and not show up. I waited and waited and finally he arrived 3 days later, only to find the foal was under 300 and needed a plasma transfusion.

We had that done and he tested over 800 afterwards. I had the mare's placenta in a bucket of water and had that checked out and it was fine, thank God! She then had an ultrasound and was palpated and lucky for me she was fine.

I will never allow this to happen again in the future. At the time I didn't want to make my vet angry and insist that he come that day. Dumb thing to do. From now on, if my vet (I have a different on now) can't make it out within 12 hours, I'm calling another vet. This happened when I didn't have any experience (and before I found this site).

But the colt was acting perfectly normal and healthy, even thou he had low levels. I would never have known he had low levels by the way he acted.

I think what saved me was my horses were all in good health and I cleaned and sterized the stall
super good and made sure the bedding was kept clean. I also made sure the cord was medicated immediately and did so two to three times a day. I think doing all this helped save my foal's life.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2815
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2010 - 08:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We prefer to test the foal's IgG level at 9 hours post foaling. Supplementation requirement and level of reading will depend a little upon the circumstances. If the colostrum tested well for IgG content, the foal nursed well and is active, and the blood is drawn from the foal at say 9 hours post-foaling, and returns a level 400-800, then almost certainly the reason for the slightly low level is early testing. In that case I would retest at 12 hours and expect to see a level >800. If however the mare's colostrum was not good, there was a problem foaling, the foal did not nurse well or does not look "bouncy", then I would supplement. The advantage of testing at 9 hours post-foaling is that (1) one can then supplement orally using previously collected colostrum (i.e. no cost), or an oral supplement such as Seramune (cost about $80); and (2) early exogenous elevations of IgG levels will (hopefully) circumvent increased exposure to potentially pathogenic organisms (waiting until 24 hours after foaling to test and supplement allows addition time and exposure to life-threatening pathogens).

An IgG level of 110 mg/dl is not indicative of illness (so there is no reason why that in itself should prevent the foal being up and around) but it does indicate that the foal has little or no immunity to environmental pathogens. It's not until one of those pathogens gains access and starts working it's dirty deeds that the foal will deteriorate.
 

Jamie Mix
Weanling
Username: Jmstar74

Post Number: 31
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 02:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok, so the colt was given a plasma transfer today, and the vet is wanting to wait until Monday to recheck him for IgG level. Does this sound correct? He said after the 10 day window there is little left that can be done.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2818
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, April 23, 2010 - 05:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

IgG levels if they are going to be elevated by a plasma transfer should elevate fairly rapidly - you are putting plasma into the circulatory system IV! Having said that, your vet may have some other reason for waiting until Monday, so perhaps the best thing to do is ask them what their reason is. Or ask another vet to give you a second opinion evaluation of the colt if you're not satisfied with the first opinion (and it does sounds as though you aren't entirely comfortable with it).

The risk you are facing is neonatal septicaemia. Right now, although the foal is healthy, if he lacks antibodies, then he is susceptible to various pathogens, including environmental pathogens (and they are there everywhere no matter how "clean" your barn is). If he encounters something to which he has no resistance, you run the risk of having a very sick and/or dead foal (also read "extreme veterinary bill"). If you're lucky and he doesn't encounter anything, you'll be fine. He is however relying on the transferred IgG protection for about another 3 months before he starts developing his own immunity, so it should be a cause for concern.
 

Cjskip
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Cjskip

Post Number: 1254
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 03:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jamie, I am sending you good, colt healthy vibes. I truly hope your colt is fine, since the transfusion. It must have been a long week-end for you, waiting for those results.

These posts scare me to death, but I am learning so much. My vet didn't want to test my filly either. I let it go, but have had a little nervous feeling in the back of my brain ever since. My filly seems fine and is three weeks old. Hopefully she will be okay, but it makes me determined to insist on the IgG test every time, from now on!

Thanks Jamie for asking these questions and Jos for answering them. Let us know how your colt is doing, please. I'm crossing my fingers for you.
 

Jamie Mix
Weanling
Username: Jmstar74

Post Number: 32
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Friday, April 30, 2010 - 04:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The colt is still at an IgG of just under 300 after the first plasma transfer done last week.... Called with the IgG yesterday and told them they will have to do it again. Not my colt, and not my vet. Doesn't sound right to me, but as I said not my foal. What do you guys think? He is 2 weeks old now.
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3299
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Friday, April 30, 2010 - 05:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i think i'm glad it's not my foal and not my vet!!! Still under 300 at 2 wks old? Just *waiting* for some pathogen to enter....he just hasn't found it YET
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2733
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, April 30, 2010 - 06:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diana is 100% correct. He is not in a good situation. I don't understand why the first plasma didn't take... hmmmmm
 

Cjskip
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Cjskip

Post Number: 1265
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, April 30, 2010 - 07:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm also confused. Perhaps there is a time line for a transfusion as well? I admit I have not completely read Jos posts, so it may say something in there about it.

I would think the transfusion would do what it is supposed to do. Who donated that plasma?????

And I agree, sounds like the poor thing is just waiting to get sick and die. I too am glad this is not my colt. I hope your friend can get things made right and this colt gets saved.
 

natalie tucker
Weanling
Username: Boondockfarm

Post Number: 41
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2010 - 02:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i would definety go with another vets opionion. i am new to this whole foaling situation. i am so thankful that my vet is compitent. i would think since they are getting paid to do a job then they would do it. i hope that everything works out ok. goodluck with the foal.
 

Jamie Mix
Weanling
Username: Jmstar74

Post Number: 33
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Monday, May 03, 2010 - 11:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They did another plasma transfer on Fri afternoon. I guess he is running another IgG today, not sure why they waited?.?.? I have never had any issues with this before, but they like this vet and seem to think my concerns are misplaced. That is why I am asking your guys opinions...
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3331
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, May 03, 2010 - 12:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I seem to think their priorities are misplaced LOL They need to educate themselves...not just go with someone likeable. TRAGIC!!
 

Cjskip
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Cjskip

Post Number: 1272
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2010 - 04:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is hard, especially if someone is inexperienced, to know if their vet is on top of equine health. We trust them. I guess all we can do is educate ourselves as much as possible and if a vet seems to fall short, ask questions and if still not satisfied, look elsewhere without hesitation. I'm learning not to worry about hurt feelings for changing vets or farriers, or trainers, or whatever. But it has taken time to feel confidant in what I know (well, within certain areas anyway).

How is the foal doing now?
 

Jamie Mix
Weanling
Username: Jmstar74

Post Number: 34
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2010 - 02:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He is still up and about. Looks good and alert. They did the 2d Plasma Transfer on Fri., I guess the vet is coming back out today to pull another IgG to see if it is better. Who knows when they will get those results in. Is this colt just a ticking time bomb????
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3343
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2010 - 01:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pretty much....for at least the first 4 months or so
tick...tick....tick......
 

Cjskip
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Cjskip

Post Number: 1284
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2010 - 02:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, unless that transfusion somehow kicks in. I still don't understand why it didn't help him. But glad he is doing okay so far and hopefully he will make it.
 

Jamie Mix
Weanling
Username: Jmstar74

Post Number: 35
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2010 - 12:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The IgG after the 2nd Plasma trans is now over 600. So he should be ok now correct?
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2755
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2010 - 02:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darn it all, it should be over 800. Ugh! I have no idea what can be done now. This is crazy! I hope someone can shed some light on this. I'm very curious as to why the foal isn't getting what it needs.
 

Lisa Jenkins
Weanling
Username: Texas_paints

Post Number: 35
Registered: 04-2010
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2010 - 03:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jamie,

I hope that he will be okay. That is really confusing???????? Are they going to have to do another transfusion, because my colt's came back at 400 and we had to do a transfusion. The vet never said I had to do another blood work???? I might need to call him and ask if something else needs to be done.

He ran into the fence yesterday and now has a cut on his chest that looks nasty. See that is why we named him Bentley! LOL!
 

Jamie Mix
Weanling
Username: Jmstar74

Post Number: 36
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Friday, May 07, 2010 - 11:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well they are not planning on doing another one, the vet said over 600 was sufficient... I hope this correct. All of this makes me very thankful for my vet!



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