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Failure of Passive Transfer

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Foaling and Immediate Post-foaling Issues » Failure of Passive Transfer « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

jennifer adamy
Weanling
Username: Jadamy

Post Number: 28
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 08:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I thought this might be a helpful thread for someone to learn from.

My mare foaled 4/26 5:30 am. Yesterday morning the filly was running and kicking in the stall full of vigor. She did take a long time to nurse her first day, just had a hard time finding it and when she did she couldn't latch on.Stella's milk just poured out while the baby was trying to figure it out. I was concerned she did not get enough colustrum so I wanted the vet to do an igg. Everyone kind of laughed at me because she looked and acted so good, even the vet kind of chuckled. He knows I am neurotic. I am so glad I trusted my instincts. Her igg was less then 400, which means failure of passive transfer. She had no immune system. The hospital is an hour and a half away. I DREADDED putting that baby in the trailer. Thankfully I have a great mare and a great husband, they both trailered fine. Me on the other hand hand to sedate myself with a bit of alcohol! She is there today and I am waiting on the outcome. Several issues to overcome before I will relax.

Words of wisdom....get the igg test no matter what. Had her surroundings not been so diligently clean I would probably not have a filly right now.

Anyone out there have personal experience they can share with me? Both positive and negative. I am going back through the last few days and weeks and blaming myself. Things I should maybe be watching for when the little girl comes home?
 

Laurie A Beltran
Breeding Stock
Username: Prophecy_ranch

Post Number: 175
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 08:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jennifer,
Don't blame yourself, with all the woulda of coulda of stuff your baby is alive rught now because you cared, and reacted smartly, not to mention for all those WONDEFUL husbands that support the women that are horses crazed! My hat off to the men and bless yourselfs women there are not enought GOOD MEN that would do what you have wrote!

May your foal come home soon My thoughts and prayers are with you!

L
 

Laurel
Weanling
Username: Laurel

Post Number: 22
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 08:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've known a lot of foals who needed the transfusions, they all came out fine. I agree always do the test.
 

Catherine Owen
Breeding Stock
Username: Cateowen

Post Number: 215
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 09:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jennifer,
Bless your brave heart! I am a fellow "neurotic" with a fantastic husband. He finally has convinced me that I have less of a chance of becoming an alcoholic if I will send my mares "out" to foal at a breeding farm, which is what I do now when we have any due to foal.

I am still on speaking terms with my vet too. I was one of those that had him on speed dial and would call when the mare would lift her tail and sigh. "Doctor, you better get over here, I think she is going to foal in the next 30 days or so!!!!! Quick, quick" :-)

I think the test is routine where I send my mares, I think they just do it. I would rather be safe than sorry.

I am certain your mare and foal will be just fine. You were right on top of it and got them to the hospital pronto. Everything will turn out okay.

Keep us posted.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1870
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 10:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We routinely test for IgG between 9 and 12 hours post-foaling. If levels are low, then we can supplement orally which is cheaper and safer than IV. We consider that this is (or should be) a standard routine practice, and many of the foals that are lost to septicaemia would be likely to be saved if it were done by all. There is an article about FPT on this site (follow that link).
 

jennifer adamy
Weanling
Username: Jadamy

Post Number: 30
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 10:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks all for words of wisdom, Catherine I got a good kick out of yours. I knew on Saturday I should have stayed with that foal longer. My vet told me to just leave them be for awhile often the interference causes more problem. I did everything I knew to guide her to the nipple. She was just sucking everywhere trying to find it and I think when she did, her legs were so long she had a hard time balancing. I let people make me feel neurotic and I should have just ignored. I read everything I can and know probably just enough to make me dangerous. But my theory is, I chose to breed this mare and I owe it to her and that baby to make sure I know all I can. If you don't know what can go wrong you certainly won't know it when you see it. Once again trust instinct and ignore all the other voices.
 

Paul Liberty
Yearling
Username: Sptxthrill

Post Number: 87
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 11:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We also test for IgG but I also give the foals Serumune when they first foal. I give 1/2 the bottle usually before they nurse and the other 1/2 bottle they get 6 to 8 hours later and all the IgG's come back greater that 800.
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 1465
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 11:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jennifer~Hoping you get that positive report that mare and filly are ready to come home. Doing one's best is all any of us can do. She is lucky to be your companion because you truly care and love them. Fingers crossed that they are home soon.
 

jennifer adamy
Weanling
Username: Jadamy

Post Number: 31
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 11:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Baby on second round of plasma, no sign of infection in her cbc though.
Paul next time (can't believe I am going to do this again!) I am going to use the serumune, better to cover your ass before it hangs out right?

Jan thanks! Will let ya know when she gets home.
 

Cjskip
Breeding Stock
Username: Cjskip

Post Number: 338
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 12:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jennifer, I am wishing you the best. Sounds like the little one will be fine, due to your good judgement. I know it is easy to blame ourselves. I too have kicked myself for not listening to my own instincts, but that's another story.

And Jennifer, THANK-YOU, THANK-YOU for your POST. It hit home and now I feel like I have a much better grasp on what the immunity level is all about.

Paul, where do you get the serumune? I want to get it today! Thanks so much for the info.

Jos, thanks for the link. I am reading the article as soon as I log off this site. And while I'm at it, THANK-YOU for this site. It's been my life line. Because of the combined info. that is dissiminated on this site, I'm sure many horses have been and will be saved, whereas ignorance that some of us had (inc. me) would surely have resulted in some losses that could have otherwise been prevented. You've done a great public service here.
 

jennifer adamy
Weanling
Username: Jadamy

Post Number: 32
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 02:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cj I couldn't have said it better, it is because of the shared stories on this site that I made the decision I did. Horses are so complex and amazing that a text book could not be written that covers it all. It is by experiences and the sharing of those that we are on the lifelong journey of understanding our equine companions. Thank you all.

I am on my way to get my filly, her levels are all up. Now I get to watch her like I did the mare for the next few weeks! That will surely be more fun though.
 

Marilyn Lemke - Dora due 7/31/08
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 1276
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 03:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yea, glad to hear you're filly's doing much better. Now relax and breath. :-)


Cjskip, I found out where you can get Seramune. It's called Heartland Vet Supply. The number is 800-934-9398. You don't need a perscription from the vet. It costs $79.95 a bottle plus shipping. If you have $100.00 order, the shipping is free.

(Message edited by marilyn_l on April 28, 2008)
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 1470
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 03:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

YEA! Congrat Jennifer! Give her a hug and pat from all of us and treat mom to some extra goodies too!
 

Paul Liberty
Yearling
Username: Sptxthrill

Post Number: 88
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 06:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jennifer, I get the Seramune from Valley Vet.com.
I paid $84.95 for 1 300ml bottle but it looks like Marilyn found it cheaper at Heartland!

Glad your filly is doing better and able to come home. You did the right thing by having it taken care of right away. Your filly should be fine now that she has gotten 2 rounds of plasma! Just keep a good eye on her and make sure that she is nursing.
 

Gina McMahon
Yearling
Username: Moonlitpaints

Post Number: 52
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 06:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a question about FPT. If my foal from last year had this problem does that mean that I have a greater chance of this years foal from the same mare having an issue or is it purely by chance?
 

Tim Popovitz
Breeding Stock
Username: Dystocia

Post Number: 103
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 07:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gina

It all depends on what the cause was last year. If last years foal had a low IgG because the mare had poor quality colostrum, then there is a likelihood you will have this problem again this year. Some mares follow a pattern of not producing very good colostrum year to year.

If it was an absorption problem with the foal or because he/she was slow to nurse, then you should be in the "purely chance" category.

At any rate, checking your foals IgG at 9 hrs. is the only way to be sure.

(Message edited by Dystocia on April 28, 2008)
 

Tim Popovitz
Breeding Stock
Username: Dystocia

Post Number: 104
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 08:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On a related note:

There are many resons for a foal to be slow to nurse. However, when we have an otherwise healthy animal (meaning legs are correct, no complictations such as placentitis or dystocia) the usual cause is a meconium impaction to varying degrees. They just can seem to figure how to nurse vigorously when they need to take another dump. We call this "sh!t for brains" syndrome.

An enema, either a pre-packaged FLEET, or a soapy enema usually gets us going in the right direction.
 

jennifer adamy
Weanling
Username: Jadamy

Post Number: 33
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 09:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tim-

I did do an enema and she went pretty well, as well as quite a bit after. There were no other physical alignments, the vet said everything else checked out fine. Maybe I should have done another one...I will always wonder.

For the record, I wish I would have read a little more and found that seramune. I had never heard of it. I hope this helps others. My vet bill was $929.00. Much more then $80 not to mention the stress of hauling back and forth at such a young age. I will never foal again without it on hand.
 

Paul Liberty
Yearling
Username: Sptxthrill

Post Number: 89
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Monday, April 28, 2008 - 10:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I always make sure I have more than 1 enema per foal and usually end up giving 2 enemas to make sure they have passed their meconium plug and I also give a dose of gastrogard just to make sure they don't develop ulcers from either being stressed at time of foaling or from straining to relieve themselves.

I also make sure that they nurse pretty well before I leave them alone. If the mare doesn't have enough milk or her bag hasn't dropped enough, I give the mare a dose of Domperidone right after she has foaled.
 

Cjskip
Breeding Stock
Username: Cjskip

Post Number: 346
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 12:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Marilyn-thanks! I actually ordered it from my vet, so am going to get it tomorrow, but it is $107.00. But in the future (yes, there is a future foaling for me-hehehe) I will order it. Saving the info. Thanks.

And everyone else who has mentioned Saramune, the IgG and so on over the past several weeks, thank-you all! I'm glad my mare didn't foal before I had this life saving fluid, even if I give it needlessly.
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 1225
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 02:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I always have the vet out within 12 hours of foaling to check the IGg and also check the mare. My mare's last foal also had a very hard time nursing and didn't get any antibodies so we did the whole plasma transfusion thing too. Out of curiosity, why did you have to go to the vet hospital? My vet did it right in the stall, it was not traumatic at all.

After that $900 vet bill though I am also buying the Serammune for this years foal :-)
 

Tim Popovitz
Breeding Stock
Username: Dystocia

Post Number: 105
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 03:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tim-

I did do an enema and she went pretty well, as well as quite a bit after. There were no other physical alignments, the vet said everything else checked out fine. Maybe I should have done another one...I will always wonder.



I struggled for years with the ones that were slow to nurse, it can really try your patience. Several years ago I just started giving a second enema to those that went longer than 2 hours before nursing no matter how normal thier output appeared to be. It was amazing how many foals got right on the bag after taking one more good poop. These days it's just standard procedure, more than 2 hours=enema. The slow nursers still make me want to pull my hair out, the only difference is, these days, I don't have any hair to spare.


FWIW, go ahead and be as neurotic as you want about checking an IgG because you are RIGHT!!!! I'm not wanting to start any trouble between you and your vet, but if I had a vet chuckle or otherwise downplay the importance of running an IgG, I would seriously question his/her credibility. There are no clinical signs of FTP until it is too late and you have one very sick foal.


Oral supplementation with serammune or donor colostrum doesn't guarantee a good passive transfer either, it just increases the odds.

Check those IgG's folks!!!!!!!!!
 

jennifer adamy
Weanling
Username: Jadamy

Post Number: 34
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 07:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tim-I know now the mistakes I made at the time. I am glad it only cost me the $900 vet bill. The vet that came to the farm to do the igg is not an equine specialist, more of a cow vet. He is the one I use for routine shots and an evaluation to work with my specialaist at the hospital I use. We live in a big farming community and a lot of people still have the mind set horses are livestock. Not many people do the igg test. This vet knows from past experience how very protective I am with my horses. I learn to take his giggles knowing at times I know more then he. I think this is one of those times I proved that to him. He did call to make sure Veritas was doing good, I could tell he was rethinking his position on the igg.

Tracy- the reason I took her to the hospital was because I also had them run a cbc on her and her white blood cell count as well as a few others were already going up. I have read on this post some of the issues with plasma transfer and to be quite honest did not trust any vet around here to do it. Also figured if she needed antibiotics it would be best to have an IV at the same time of the transfusion. And hauling a perky filly seemed much better then hauling one that has already started down hill.

I am so glad that my experience has helped others. Well worth the large vet bill. I spent so much time researching the pregnancy worried about my mare that I didn't research enough about the baby once it got here. I can tell you I have foaled 5 times prior to this and never had any problems, BUT, didn't know enough about the igg to even do the test. Ignorance and luck!
Thank you all-

Here is a cute picture of Veritas http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk147/jadamy/stellapregnancy158.jpg
 

jennifer adamy
Weanling
Username: Jadamy

Post Number: 35
Registered: 04-2008
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 07:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One more thing....any advice for her care in the next few days/weeks. From what I understand, she has better immunities now then she would have had she just gotten colustrum. Any long term side effects? Special care? I haven't found any where that says I should take special care but I am learning to trust the words on this board...
 

Bobbi Govro
Breeding Stock
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 341
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 09:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just a quick comment since I had this very issue this year with a slow to nurse foal. (I got lucky and IgG tested over 800)

I have always used Nursemate ASAP immediately after foaling. Its a nice supplement that encourages appetite and I like the effect it has on the digestive system as the flourescent yellow color is quite detectable coming out the other end.

I also ALWAYS check IgG levels. I pickup tubes from my vet prior to foaling and draw the blood myself and take it in to be run. This works ONLY for my own knowledge. My vet draws the blood IF there may be a questionable foal so that it can be certified down the road during a sale of that foal that it was IgG tested.

I'm not sure why there is a perception that if a mare has a "big bag" that all is well. I have a mare that never develops a large bag but is a great "colostrum & milk" producer.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1873
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 10:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One caution to be aware of in using Seramune or any other IgG supplement prophylactically, and that is that it will fill the foal's stomach and reduce his desire to nurse. Although the supplement contains good IgG levels, it may not contain antibodies specific to that particular location which would be contained in the mare's colostrum. It is therefore possible that in some circumstances the prophylactic use of a supplement may reduce good passive transfer suitable for that particular foaling location.



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