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4th time A.I. ing hope she takes

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Abortion and Pregnancy Loss » 4th time A.I. ing hope she takes « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Tara Jansen a[
Neonate
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 06:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Last year we A.I.my APHA mare 3 times and the first time she took but the vet said she had a EED. This was our first time dealing with A.I. through the mail. We had the mare bred one time before and it was at the breeding farm she was a maiden mare and took on the first time in 2006. She foaled a loud overo filly in 2007 she did not have any problems until after her filly was born she retained her placenta for almost 11 hours. We called a vet after 3 hours and we had to give her 2 shots before the placenta was out. He looked at it and said it looked fine. We asked what could have caused this as we had the mare on NW mare and foal concentrate supplements and fed her really well her whole pregnancy. He did not have a explanation for it he said its just something that happens. We had the mare checked by 2 different vets and they said she was healthy for breeding. Im just frustrated because we have been on top of everything and this mare should have took last year and did not. We had her A.I. again on the 7th & 8th following a regumate controlled cycle with the lutalyse and the hcg shot. We will find out on the 23rd if she takes or not. I am just curious if anyone else out there has had issues getting mares in foal after retained placenta? Also does anyone know what causes this?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2366
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, April 18, 2009 - 10:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Retained placenta may be caused by low Selenium levels, but there are other possible, and unknown causes as well. Trying to identify the cause is next to impossible, and - as your vet said - in many cases it is "just something that happens". It is unlikely that there is any correlation between the retention and the failure to establish pregnancy. The reverse would be more likely to be true - a prematurely released placenta may be indicative of a poor uterine quality - but not retention. The exception to that would be if you were breeding a "foal heat", when a reduction of pregnancy rates is increased following placental retention owing to a failure of good uterine involution.

The only possible connection could be if there were a (maybe only partial) failure in the oxytocin release mechanisms of your mare - oxytocin is the hormone that stimulates contractions that cause expulsion of the placenta (in part) and also cause clearance of post-breeding uterine fluids. If that were the case, a reduction in pregnancy rates may be likely, and the use of an oxytocin protocol during the breeding period may be beneficial. Follow that link for details of a protocol.
 

Tara Jansen a[
Neonate
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 08:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So we took the mare in for a ultrasound today and vet said she ovulated when he wanted her to but did not take again! At this point I am not sure what we are going to do he said he wants to see her early Monday morning to see where she is at and see what I want to do about re- inseminating her again.He also said she might be a mare that has to be inseminated with fresh semen to "take". He said I need to think about what I want to do about switching mares as I have a 4 yr old I could breed. I wanted to wait until she was a 5 yr old but he said she would be fine to breed. Any suggestions?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2372
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 12:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why does he feel that "she might be a mare that has to be inseminated with fresh semen to 'take'"?

Take a look at the article on our site entitled "Breeding mythinformation" before answering... :-) (follow that link).
 

tara
Neonate
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 03:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HI Jos,

Thank you for posting back. The article does make sense. I really did not want to switch out mares as I have already had this mare culture/biopsy done and it was clean didn't want to loose more time this season as we are breeding for a futurity foal and the mare we are trying to breed is a proven pleasure horse. Is the stuff that clears them out after being inseminated called "Settle"? We tried that the very last time we AI'd her last year. She was inseminated on April 7th & 8th(she ovulated on the 7th) so he said he wanted to see her this coming monday early enough in the morning to determine where she was at and when we needed to order the semen.He also told me to try to tease her (said stud or gelding would work) in which I have not a idea what I am doing in that department. We walked her over by our gelding and she just stood there while he sniffed her and tried to nip her. No tail raising or anything displayed from her. If you don't mind me asking what day do you think she should be bred? Thank you again for your help.
 

tara
Neonate
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 6
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 03:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Would he be able to tell from the ultrasound if she did have fluid build up? he said everything looked good but after reading that article again I think I want to try the oxytocin. Let me know what your opinion is.
 

Samantha
Breeding Stock
Username: Dressage_diva333

Post Number: 604
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 03:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tara,

Yes, he would be able to see some fluid on the ultrasound. I use Oxytocin on every mare I breed. It's just worth it to me, and got a couple seemingly impossible mares in foal for me last year :-) If she's not teasing, then it's not a good time to breed, when she is ready, she should be in strong standing heat... meaning that if you were to do LC, then she would stand to be mounted. We made that mistake last year, inseminating a mare with a large follicle, but she wasn't really teasing. Well the follicle grew for three more days, then she was REALLY teasing! We do use HcG, or Deslorelin most of the time though.

Is this fresh or frozen semen?
 

tara
Neonate
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 7
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 03:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Its fresh semen. We did use the regumate to control her last cycle and I gave her the lutalyse shot then we took her to him and he gave her the HCG shot to make her ovulate.He told me that we should go ahead and turn off lights on April 15th. So after she was bred on the 7&8th we went ahead and kept her under them at night but now she is turned out. So now since its later in the season and she is not under lights will this be harder to know when to breed? He also said mares can get used to the HCG shot and sometimes they wont respond to it. Last year the same thing happened mare had a big follicle vet ordered the semen and she didn't ovulate until 3 more days!He couldn't believe how big it got that was really late in the year (june) and we gave up after that..I think I will definitely give the oxytocin a shot again. We have invested a lot into this and I really never imagined it would get this expensive. Very frustrating
 

Ad TB
Breeding Stock
Username: Ajvtbs

Post Number: 614
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 08:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doe your vet spec the mares to see how on they are and if they have oedema, our vet uses follicle size, spec and oedema as the 3 criteria for deciding when the mare gets covered. We give an LH either before or after covering. The fluid will be easily visible on the scan and oxytocin combined with exercise and teasing should help this. We've had a bit of difficulty with older mares with fluid this year and this is waht we do. Oxtyocin 4 times daily, 20 minutes lunging and an hour on the horse walker daily, turned out 24 hours a day and teasing twice daily. To tease the mare hold the mare and get another person to hold the stallion/gelding get the stallion/ gelding to smell her behind. A positive response is when she's responsive to him, raises tail, urinates, doesn't kick him. As she comes more in season she'll raise tail more, back into him and not want to leave him. We give oxytocin 4 hours after covering and then every 6 hours for 3 days. The vet will come the day after covering to scan for ovulation, check for fluid and treat the mare. We continue teasing twice daily after covering for two days. I know it sounds like a lot of work but It's worth it if it's successful.
 

tara
Neonate
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 8
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Monday, April 27, 2009 - 04:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So we took the mare in today to have her checked to see when we needed to re breed her. Vet said she was taking her time coming back into heat. So he thought about short cycling her he said. He wanted me to give her a shot of lutalyse this WED instead of the normal 3 cc he gave me 5cc and said he wonders if that is where we have been going wrong that she possibly needed a up dose in the lutalyse department??. Then he phones me says to wait to give her the lutalyse shot as she is hanging onto that corpus lutam (sp) and he wants to check her again this Wednesday to make sure she doesn't have a slow developing embryo. I am worried now that 2 days shouldn't make much of a difference in the size of a embryo if she got in foal on the 7th or 8th.. I don't want to give her the lutalyse shot in case she is preg and maybe he is having a hard time seeing this on the ultrasound. Im so confused and don't know what to do at this point. Should I wait and see if she will just come back into heat on her own that way if she is in foal this wed we wont abort her with the lutalyse even if he says she is not in foal? She is showing no signs of heat we tried teasing her and she just stood there while the gelding sniffed her and she did not care. I am just worried because when he scaned for preg the very first time on the 23rd when he stuck his hand in he thought she was in foal until he looked at the monitor... At first I was worried about how late in the season it was getting but since we missed last year my main goal is getting a foal and I dont care if its even a may baby we just want our foal next yr..All opinions would be appreciated.
 

Ad TB
Breeding Stock
Username: Ajvtbs

Post Number: 707
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Monday, April 27, 2009 - 05:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd be concerned about the competance of your vet, he sounds very unsure about himself! How many days is she since covering?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2380
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, April 27, 2009 - 06:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would go and seek an opinion from another vet before doing anything.

3 to 5 ml of Lutalyse is a cow dose, not a horse. The full horse dose is 1-2 ml (depending upon size) and research has demonstrated that 1/10th of that dose (i.e. 0.1-0.2 ml) 2 days in a row is adequate. That is what we have been using for the past 7 years...

I too would have concerns about the amount of experience tis vet has with equine reproduction, and how up to date they are with the "new" (7 year-old!) research...

Get a second opinion...
 

tara
Neonate
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 9
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Friday, May 01, 2009 - 02:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

got a sec opinion. had her ultra sounded an no foal. we just gave her the 2ccs other vet said the 5 was way too much..said mare looked good and healthy and shouldn't be having problems getting in foal like this. I am thinking its just wrong timing instead of the mare having problems. Has anyone heard of the wrong match in horses? We have been told some mares just wont take with certain stallions?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2386
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 01:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's rare, but it happens. The mare produces antisperm antibodies. It's not clear why.
 

tara
Nursing Foal
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 15
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Monday, May 04, 2009 - 09:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I gave the mare the 2 cc shot of lutalyse on April 30th. Had her checked this morning and she has 2 equal size follicles present.He wants to check her again Wed morning to see if we can order semen. Our weather has suddenly changed and now its very cold and raining hard after being very warm for the last couple weeks will this slow her ovulation down I have heard that it can? Thanks
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2391
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, May 04, 2009 - 09:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not likely, once she's cycling.
 

tara
Nursing Foal
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 17
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, May 07, 2009 - 02:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The mare was hcg'd by our vet may 6th 7:30am he said she had a 3+ follical. I called and semen is on its way looked up fed ex and ETA is may 7th 4:30 pm. The stud owner is sending 3 viles of semen.Wondering what your guys opinions were about insemination. Should we do all three at once or space them out if so how far?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2406
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, May 07, 2009 - 12:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are conflicting views on this, so I will put forward our protocol, and the reasons for it, and leave it at that (i.e. not comment on other's views! :-)).
  • About 20 years ago, Colorado State University did research that demonstrated that there was no increase in pregnancy rates when >500 million progressively motile, morphologically normal sperm were inseminated. These numbers are usually achieved by shipping 1 billion sperm per dose, and anticipating a 50% die-off rate by the time of insemination. From this, it can be seen that research has demonstrated that putting multiple doses in at the same time is not likely to increase pregnancy rates with reference to the sperm numbers.
  • If one has a mare that has borderline delayed uterine clearance issues, placement of a dramatically increased (doubled or tripled) volume of inseminate is likely to result in a uterus that is unable to clear the additional fluid, and consequently lower pregnancy rates. On top of that, a uterus is only going to be able to contain so much fluid (in most mares, 60-ml is considered average, although obviously immediately post-partum mares will be able to contain more), so some will actually be lost back out through the cervix into the vagina. Hence, again, no advantage to putting the additional doses in at the same time.
  • Following insemination, a healthy mare will mount a post-breeding inflammatory response. This is significant by 6 hours post-breeding; peaks at about 16 hours in healthy mares and is dissipating by 24-30 hours in those mares (mares with DUC require additional attention to achieve clearance by 24/30 hours). Research has demonstrated that placement of a second insemination dose into the uterus during the significant portion of the inflammatory response (6-20 hours) results in the majority of those sperm being destroyed by the inflammatory cells. Hence, no advantage to insemination of a second dose during that time frame.
  • Our protocol is that we will check the mare at 24 hours after the first insemination, and if she has not yet ovulated, we will evaluate the semen to ensure a minimum of 100 million PMMNS (follow that link for more details) in the dose, and inseminate a minimum of 24 hours after the previous insemination dose.
If you need to use a third, dose, then you probably want to look at getting someone to do your work that's better at anticipating ovulation! :-)
 

tara
Weanling
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 22
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, May 14, 2009 - 02:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here it is the 13th and the mare is still sitting on a 4.5 follicle. Any reason why they just idle and dont build? he said she has made progress its getting softer but she is just taking her time we have another batch of semen in the fridge ready to be inseminated. Did one dose tonight at 9pm and going to tomorrow at 5 pm, just boggles my mind how she was a 3+ on the 6th and is just now a 4.5 and still has yet to ovulate. He has even gave her 2 HCG shots and still nothing.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2421
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, May 15, 2009 - 12:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Be aware that treatment with >=5,000 I.U. of hCG in a cycle may suppress ovulation... :-(
 

Michele
Breeding Stock
Username: Mich

Post Number: 143
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, May 15, 2009 - 12:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

By now that follicle will be aged and wouldn't really be very viable anymore, would it Jos?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2424
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, May 15, 2009 - 03:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not necessarily, but if it's not growing and is just sitting there, then the likelihood of success does decline.
 

tara
Weanling
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 24
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 02:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Checked her at 7:30 am on Friday morning May 15th and she ovulated. SO hopefully since she was AI'd on the 13th and 14th it will work.. We will see in a couple weeks.
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 2426
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 02:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fingers and toes crossed for you!
 

cheryl Johnson
Neonate
Username: Cjskippy

Post Number: 2
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 11:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, let us know if it works!
 

tara
Weanling
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 30
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 10:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

YAY It worked!! She is in foal!! I even took my camera in and took pictures I will post for you guys..He said everything looked great ..
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 2467
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 12:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh Tara that is most excellent news! So happy for you!
 

tara
Weanling
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 31
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 05:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

<img> <a href="http://blingee.com/blingee/view/91751993-Rosies-foal-" target="_blank"><img></a><br><a href="http://blingee.com" target="_blank">Add Glitter to Pictures</a><br><br>

Here is the 14 day Embryo I was having trouble with photobucket and found this site so I played around with the picture :-) Hope it works
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 1886
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 07:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Congratulations!!! That's huge!!! I love the arrow pointing to your embryo. lol I'm very very happy for you!!!
 

tara
Weanling
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 32
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Friday, May 29, 2009 - 09:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a video link to the stallion she is bred to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFRQsM2O3RY
 

tara
Weanling
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 34
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 01:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We had mare checked 45 days and she is still in foal.. I took some pictures of the ultrasound and will post soon:-)
 

Cjskip
Breeding Stock
Username: Cjskip

Post Number: 937
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 01:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great Tara. ! Would love to see ultrasound pics. Did the vet hazard a guess on the sex?

I have two pregnant mares-both 70 days (give or take a day or two).

Isn't it fun?
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 2550
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 30, 2009 - 11:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tara..so glad the pregnancy is progressing nicely..now for the long wait!



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