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Bagging up too early? Discharge ... Aborting???

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Abortion and Pregnancy Loss » Bagging up too early? Discharge ... Aborting??? « Previous Next »


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Cynthia Adams
Neonate
Username: Cnm

Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 05:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My mare started bagging up at 260 days. I've had some mares start to bag up early so although slightly concerned wasnít too worried.

At day 280 her teats suddenly (overnight) starting filling in (although Udder still quite small). I panicked and called the vet. He came out and said not to worry about it. I insisted on an ultrasound to check for Placentitis. He had never done it before, but came out the next day and ultrasounded her. He judged it to be 7mm with one small area bigger, but no fluids ... so normal. The foal was very active and the vet said not to worry about it.

Day 284, she had a slight reddish discharge and today (day 285) she clearly has reddish pus coming out of the vulva and her udder is much larger than last week. The vet gave me Uniprim (1 scoop 1x/day ... she is 506 kg) to give her.

If not placentitis, what else could it be? Also, should she be on regumate? How long should treatment (antibiotics/hormones) last for?

Not sure if this is relevant; however, this mare was diagnosed with a tumor/cyst in her sinus cavity in the second trimester. She was on antibiotics (sulfa) for several months. I was told that it was unlikely that she would make it full term since the growth of the tumor/cyst was very rapid and the discharge was excessive. They figured she would either abort from stress or simply not live long enough to have it. However, she spontaneously got better mid February (no more nasal discharge and her head stopped enlarging). I thought I was out of the clear, but now Iím paranoid that she may be aborting.
Other than the udder and discharge, she is quite content.

Any info/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2348
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 09:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Obviously - not having seen the animal, and not being a veterinarian - all I can comment on are the "standard" factors and treatments for placentitis. Hopefully they will help.
  • At 9 months of pregnancy, the CTUP should be <8mm in thickness, at 10 months, <9mm;
  • Vaginal discharge should not be present at this stage of pregnancy, although bleeding from vaginal varicous veins is not uncommon, and not an issue;
  • Treatment for Placentitis may include (all daily) double-dose Regumate; Broad-spectrum antibiotics; Flunixin meglumine (Banamine); Pentoxifyline; Estrogens.
  • If in doubt, get a second opinion - you're close to the point where a live foal may survive, so even if this is an impending abortion if you can hold it off, you may be OK.
Good luck.
 

Cynthia Adams
Neonate
Username: Cnm

Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Monday, April 06, 2009 - 11:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Jos,

If she is bleeding from the vaginal varicous veins, what color would it be?

Her discharge is yellow pus with streaks of brownish red.

We started her on Regumate 11cc 2x/day this pm. I will ask my vet about the other meds. We are planning on keeping her on the antibiotics for the remainder of the pregnancy, but how long would we need her on the Regumate?

Thanks :-)
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2349
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, April 07, 2009 - 12:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If blood from a varicous vein, it would be blood-coloured. Pus is not good.

Typically mares being treated for placentitis will remain on Regumate and Banamine until about 310 days of pregnancy, and the antibiotics until foaling. It is also worth considering that a foal from a placentitis mare may have been exposed to a pathogen in utero and therefore be at increased risk of neonatal septicaemia. It is not uncommon for some people to treat these foals with a course of prophylactic antibiotics at birth.

Also be aware that there is a higher risk for premature placental separation ("red bag delivery") in placentitis mares, as the placental attachment is already compromised, do it is important to be present at the foaling - which may occur earlier than normal, as nature often accelerates fetal development in placentitis mares.
 

Michele
Breeding Stock
Username: Mich

Post Number: 139
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 03:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Are you talking about an ethmoid haematoma? I have experienced this and unless it is really serious it shouldn't affect the mare's ability to either fall pregnant or produce a live foal. It was explained to me that (possible) infection from the nasal area could not affect the uterus. I have also seen a horse with really advanced squamous cell carcinoma in the eye area carry a foal fullterm and then go on to nurse the foal till 5 months after which the owner euthanased the mare because the cancer was so advanced it was untreatable. This is obviously different to an EH (which is not cancerous) but it just illustrates that it is possible for a mare to carry fullterm despite a serious medical condition which is unrelated to reproduction.

Was your mare scoped and exactly where was the ethmoid haematoma and where was her head swollen? Was she scoped after the discharge stopped and was it confirmed that the haemotoma had disappeared? I find it hard to believe that an EH could resolve all by itself without treatment. It often takes numerous treatments for it to disappear and it is not always successful. If it had already caused localised swelling it is even more unlikely that it has resolved spontaneously. It might be growing inwards instead of outwards. Possibly they are totally unrelated and you are dealing with two separate issues.

I had a similar experience to you a couple of years ago when one of my 150 day in foal mares had a high temperature and lethargy for 24hours and a reddish brown pusy discharge shortly thereafter and 25 hours after that she aborted. She was started on Regumate and ab's immediately but it was obviously too late. Your mare being further along stands a far better chance. All the best.

>>Not sure if this is relevant; however, this mare was diagnosed with a tumor/cyst in her sinus cavity in the second trimester. She was on antibiotics (sulfa) for several months. I was told that it was unlikely that she would make it full term since the growth of the tumor/cyst was very rapid and the discharge was excessive. They figured she would either abort from stress or simply not live long enough to have it. However, she spontaneously got better mid February (no more nasal discharge and her head stopped enlarging). I thought I was out of the clear, but now Iím paranoid that she may be aborting.
Other than the udder and discharge, she is quite content.<<
 

Cynthia Adams
Neonate
Username: Cnm

Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 07:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jos & Michele for your comments.

Update: After several days on the Uniprim the discharge changed from yellow pus with streaks of brownish red to thick brown. Gradually, the consistency became thinner and now she just has a slight stain at the base of the vulva at her am and pm check.

We started her on regumate on day 285 and her teats finally flattened back down at day 288. Would the reduced swelling in the udder/teats be from the regumate or from getting the infection under control?

Also, I asked about the other drugs and my vet didnít think anything other than Regumate and antibiotics would be necessary. Iíve read that Banamine is used to control prostaglandin secretion. How important is it to give Banamine?

Also, Iím currently squirting the regumate into her mouth. Will horses eat it with their grain, or does it taste awful?

Michele Ö. My mare had x-rays and a scope from a reputable equine practice (when a nasal discharge turned so smelly that it would make people gag). The facial enlargement was [and is] on her forehead and between her eyes). The vet said she had a sinus cyst; however, the University of Saskatewan thought it was likely a tumor instead. I was told that the mass would take the path of least resistance and would eventually move down the nasal cavity instead of continuing to push out the bones of the skull.

I was told that the mare needed immediate surgery or would likely need to be euthanized after the delivery of the foal (if she made it that long). The surgery was expensive, there was a 30%???? chance of the mass returning and I was told she would most likely loose the foal from the surgery so I decided to take my chances and try to get the foal out of her instead of doing the surgery.

She was on antibiotics for several months. I was told to take her off them temporarily. See what happens and then put her back on again when the stench became unbearable. After 3 weeks of being off the antibiotics, her nasal discharge miraculously went away and then several weeks later, the smell went away as well.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2353
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, April 10, 2009 - 11:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Would the reduced swelling in the udder/teats be from the regumate or from getting the infection under control?

Probably a combination of the effects of both.

How important is it to give Banamine?

Banamine is regarded as a standard part of anti-abortion treatment by veterinarians specializing in equine reproduction, particularly if dealing with a suspected placentitis case.

Iím currently squirting the regumate into her mouth. Will horses eat it with their grain, or does it taste awful?

Some will, but in this case you want to be absolutely certain that the mare is getting the full dose, so you're better off squirting it in. Make sure you wear nitrile gloves (not latex) when handling the stuff.
 

Michele
Breeding Stock
Username: Mich

Post Number: 140
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 01:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds exactly like an ethmoid haematoma because of the swelling, unless of course it's a SCC. Very interesting. With EH's they can grow right out of the head if left untreated. Did they take a biopsy? If it is a cancerous growth (which doesn't usually resolve untreated) it might not be the only place she has cancer. It could unfortunately be in the uterus or elsewhere as well.
Yes if she needed general anaesthetic for the op the chances of aborting are very high. What a tough choice.

Unfortunately after having had a trephination and numerous scopes to attempt to locate the source of further EH's (after having had treatment to resolve 3 smaller ones which were easily visible with the scope)and being on longterm ab's my mare still has a bloody nasal discharge. It disappeared for a few months after treatment but then returned. I have to take her back for more expensive explorative surgery. I do hope your prognosis is better!
 

Cynthia Adams
Neonate
Username: Cnm

Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Saturday, April 11, 2009 - 05:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, they didnít take a biopsy Ö I was told they would need to drill a hole in her head to get one.

The surgeon said the next step would be to transport her to the nearest equine MRI machine (6 hours away) to determine the exact dimensions of the mass since it was so close to the brain???? and because that area bleeds so much that it would be hard to determine its true size during the surgery???

Once the MRI was done, he could proceed with a sinus flap surgery for removal (a surgery he performs regularly). In her case, he would not perform the surgery without an MRI first.

The vet said the only real treatment is removing the mass by surgery. The surgeon felt it needed to be performed right away since the growth was extremely rapid in a short period of time. He felt that it would no longer be operable if we waited since the growth would get too big (if it maintained the same rate of growth).

During that period of quick growth, my mareís sinus discharge was pus that, at times, resembled cottage cheese (never any blood though). Once the nasal discharge went away, my mare seemed much calmer and less stressed. I had hoped that perhaps the growth had temporarily stopped growing and that her symptoms would stay away until after the foal was born. I currently own this mare with a friend who said that if the foal turns out nice, then she may be willing to have the surgery done (if its still operable at that time). So I guess only time will tell Ö
 

Michele
Breeding Stock
Username: Mich

Post Number: 141
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Monday, April 13, 2009 - 07:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My mare had an MRI and they could locate absolutely nothing. No idea where the discharge was originating from and what was causing it. They had to do a trephination (drill a hole in the head) to put the scope through to try and locate the EH and still nothing. Very, very frustrating and worrying. Yes, the head area bleeds profusely and that is what is of most concern - that and infection. I was amazed at how quickly the hole (not very large at all) healed up with no scar. I hope by some miracle your mare's problem has resolved itself..
 

Cynthia Adams
Neonate
Username: Cnm

Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 09:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jos,

What is the usual dosage for Regumate?

I was told by another breeder (that had a mare with placentitis) I could drop the dosage down to 5 cc, 1 time per day.

My mare is at day 302 and has been on 11cc, 2 times a day. It would be nice to drop her down if possible. What are your thoughts on dosage?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2371
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, April 24, 2009 - 12:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mares being treated for placentitis are usually double-dosed with Regumate until 310 days or so of pregnancy.
 

Baraaks_Storm
Weanling
Username: Baraaks_storm

Post Number: 33
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Friday, August 28, 2009 - 05:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just courious of how this pregnancy turned out. I have a mare who is almost 4 months and is doing the same thing your mare was. I have her on antibiotics and regumate now, hoping she'll hold the foal.



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