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Mystery Loss

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Abortion and Pregnancy Loss » Mystery Loss « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Crystal Gerszewski
Yearling
Username: Spot_collection

Post Number: 75
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 01:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well tonight has been a very sad long night. My thoroughbred mare lost her foal tonight. HE was born dead with alot of confusion and disapointment from us. Here's how it happened.... She was due on April 9th and everything looked normal, she was bagging steadily, lengthening and loosening in her hind end. I had talked to her previous owner and she had 4 foals for her with no problems even though they were all born out in the pasture!! So today when I fed in th morning she did not eat and she was lengthened alot. So I figured she was going to go today. When I took a closer look I noticed that she had bloody urine all over her hind legs and vulva area....ok strange so I called the vet to make sure everything was ok. And she told me that it could be one of three things 1. the foal could have caught some scar tissue in the mare (nothing to worry about and the most likely) 2. bleeding in the bladder 3. bleeding internally. So I figured I would watch her closely but I wasn't too worried since this mare has had a few. Well tonight we had left for a birthday and we were only gone for an hour when the girl that was checking on her called and said She's having it!!! So we took off and went home. Well the mare only had the ip of the front feet and nose out so we watched for a bit and then realized she wasn't getting anywhere. So I went over and started helping her when she contracted. The bag soon broke and I had noticed that there was placenta laying on top of the foals head, I had never seen that before so I started to worry well sure enough the foal had to response when i tapped next to his eye and his nose was starting to get cold so I knew he wasn't going to make it. Then we tried to get him out!! We finally got him out after having his shoulders caught up and his hip caught up. and the mare wouldn't get up for a good hour. We finally got her up and she seemed ok, besides the heartbreaking neigh looking for her baby. We took the foal before she could see him and now I'm praying we don't loose her!!

Has anyone heard of something like this before...I need some piece of mind. The colt was HUGE and dark bay with no color and had passed actual pebbles of manure when he was in her. Also I noticed him moving around in her belly about 2 hours before he was born????!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1830
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 10:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What do you mean by "The bag soon broke and I had noticed that there was placenta laying on top of the foals head"? Are you saying that the placenta was being delivered along with the foal - i.e. placenta previa (aka "red bag delivery")?

The presence of meconium ("pebbles of manure") in the amniotic fluid indicates fetal distress during the foaling.

FWIW - and hopefully you will never need to use this piece of information - we will typically not remove the dead foal immediately. That seems to cause more distress than leaving the foal in the stall with the mare, who will nuzzle it and quickly understand that it's dead (at which point of course remove it).
 

Bobbi Govro
Breeding Stock
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 146
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 10:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crystal: I am soooo sorry! My heart is with you.
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 1160
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 12:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm very sorry for your loss Crystal :-(
 

Crystal Gerszewski
Yearling
Username: Spot_collection

Post Number: 77
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 07:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Jos for your information. No it was not a red bag delivery, the bag was normal in color but a piece of one of the horns was delivered with the foal. And we did take the foal into the other stall and waited to see how she did and then we saw that she was not stressed with not seeing him at that point we removed the foal from the area.
 

Laurie A Beltran
Breeding Stock
Username: Prophecy_ranch

Post Number: 125
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 08:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crystal,
My tears are falling as I'm writing you!!!! I'm soo soooo sad and sorry for your loss!

May your heart heal...

L
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1831
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 10:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK... I'm still not entirely clear.

Note that the term "red bag delivery" is referencing "premature placental separation" - where the placenta is presented at the same time as the foal. With a complete "red bag delivery", the allantoic sac (the "placenta") fails to rupture, and the entire placenta with the allantoic fluid, amniotic sac, amniotic fluid and fetus (in that order of "depth") are delivered at the same time.

With a partial premature separation, the allantoic sac may rupture, but some portion of the allantois has already separated from the lining of the uterus, and this means that the fetus is no longer receiving a full amount of oxygenated blood (remember that the foal cannot breath until the chest has been delivered allowing the expansion of the lungs).

So... going back to your situation. When you say "the bag was normal in color but a piece of one of the horns was delivered with the foal", I am somewhat at a loss as to how to interpret this! What do you mean by "one of the horns"...? A horn of the uterus? A horn of the allantoic sac? And if the latter, why was it not red?

If you can clarify, perhaps I or someone can assist with answering your question.
 

Crystal Gerszewski
Yearling
Username: Spot_collection

Post Number: 78
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 11:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm sorry Jos, wayyyyy over tired with this whole situation happening. OK so this is what I meant to say. This delivery would be classified as a partial premature seperation. The allantoic sac was ruptured but a portion was already seperated so the foal was not recieving oxygen.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1832
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 10:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Partial premature placental separation is most commonly caused as a result of either placentitis, or poor quality endometrium (uterine lining).

Getting the foal out of the mare with speed is the key. There is however one caveat, and that is that if the cervix has not relaxed adequately, then pulling to get the foal out may result in damage to the cervix that can reduce reproductive efficiency in the mare.

What did the rest of the placenta look like? Was it abnormally thick or thin, or discoloured? That may indicate placentitis and be useful for future reference.

If you decide to rebreed this mare, I would recommend a good BSE, including both a cervical evaluation and an endometrial biopsy.
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 1402
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 10:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crystal~My Deepest sympathy~I lost a foal in 2006 to red bag delivery. It is heartbreaking and so hard to see a completely full term, stout foal die for lack of oxygen. You did all you could do. You lovingly took care of you mare and this was a tragedy of nature. Good thoughts to your mares successful recovery. Hugs and tears for you loss.
 

Crystal Gerszewski
Yearling
Username: Spot_collection

Post Number: 80
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 11:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The placenta was normal thickness and color. This mare has had 4 or 5 foals with no problems in the past, the vet said that because she was bleeding that much early on the placenta was more than likely detached earlier in the day and she could not push him out which means the foal was already dead and there was nothing we could do to save him. She did an exam on her and said that nothing is torn and her cervix is fine. Thanks for the info
 

Tim Popovitz
Yearling
Username: Dystocia

Post Number: 53
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 02:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am truely sorry for your loss and I don't mean to pry, but there is something I am curious about.

I am curious to know if the the attendant actually saw her break water.



The reason I ask this is, we had a mare do something similar earlier this season. She began with a blood-tinged discharge, not much a few ounces maybe, so the foaling guy (Jonathon) called me to come on down, meanwhile he wrapped her tail. When I got down there, she had a small blood spot on her tail wrap, but she wasn't showing us ANYTHING else. I figured (just like your vet) that perhaps she had just busted a few small blood vessels, so we just watched her closely.

The blood spot, over the next 30 minutes or so began to grow, So I called the rest of the foaling crew out. I wrestled with the decision of palpating her at this stage, I didn't want to rush her if everything was going to proceed normally. However, the volume of blood tinged liquid was sending-out some serious warning signs to my sleep deprived brain, so I decided to go ahead and palp her. I'm glad I did (I think). The placenta had ruptured and it probably ruptured before we started seeing the discharge. You can tell if the placenta has ruptured by feel because when the placenta is intact it feels like a foals foot with a dishrag over it. I felt smooth amnion covering the foals foot, her cervix was barely open enough for the foals foot to fit through it.

We decide to wait a few minutes, 10 or so, and nothing. No fluid, no contractions, nothing. Called the Vet, he says to give her another 20 minutes and then stimulte her but pulling the feet into the birth canal if her cervix will allow it. Her cervix began to open and we pulled the feet farther into the birth canal, then NOTHING. No contractions, no up-down, pawing, nothing.

Finally, about an hour and 20 minutes after the first palp, she began to have her first contractions and ended up delivering. This foal spent a few days in the hospital and was released with a clean bill of health. We got extremely lucky on this one.


Sorry to bore you with this long story, but I've tried to research "Premature Rupture Of Membranes" in horses but not much exists. There are all kinds of resouces about premature seperation though. Our mare obviously ruptured her placenta BEFORE stage 1 labor began. I know that because of the initial palpation.

The placenta was normal color, normal thickness, and normal weight, if I recall, it actually looked very healthy.

I've seen all kinds of foaling problems, red-bag, partial red-bag, severe dystocias, hemorrhages etc. I've never seen a premature rupture of the placenta though. Or, perhaps I have and it was written off as something else. I've had my share of un-explained stillborn foals. I'm just wondering if there are enough similiarities between your mare and ours to form some kind of theory about this.

******* I don't recommend palpating a mare unless you are experienced, with someone who is experienced, or under the direction of a veterinarian, you can do more harm than good*******


Sorry to be so long winded, but this foaling is something that has been bugging me scince it happened. I keep second guessing myself, did I palp too quickly, or not soon enough? Did I cause something to go bad wrong, or did I get lucky and prevent something from going bad wrong? I still don't have any answers.






Jos

Any thoughts?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1833
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 12:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not really any blinding thoughts Tim... As you know only too well, they all have the potential to be different from the last!

I will throw another thought into the mix though. Could this "premature placental rupture" actually be a symptom of uterine inertia? i.e. the allantochorion ruptures, but the mare has no contractions to take things further, and it is not until later in the assisted delivery that the contractions kick into gear. Perhaps in your situation a combination of assistance in delivery and palpation stimulated the contractions?

Just a thought...
 

Tim Popovitz
Yearling
Username: Dystocia

Post Number: 55
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 04:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Uterine inertia. I think that's it!!!

After doing a bit of research, and now that I have a name for it thanks to you, this explains alot.

This mare rejected her foal last year, violently! And this year she had a difficult delivery plus her bag dissappeared a day after foaling, even with Domperidone. The hormonal inbalance/deficiency associated with uterine inertia is the link I was missing.

Thanks, I learn something everyday!!!!!
 

Jo Angela Stirewalt
Breeding Stock
Username: Raknrydr

Post Number: 118
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 06:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok so a red bag delivery is the placenta being delivered with or ahead of the foal ?

I was under the impression that red bag was actually the amniotic sac being red and tough and leathery instead of the silvery white thinner sac.

Everyone told me don't feed fescue because it will cause a red bag and make the bag so tough the foal will not be able to push through and it will die in the sac.
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 1418
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 07:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I lost a foal to red bag...the bag is touggh and the baby was delivered in the sack as opposed to the break out of the bag the foal is born and the placenta peels and comes out after....it all came out in one...baby asphixiated :-( Mare was checked at 12 a.m. no signs of labor and rechecked at 2 a.m. baby was born, dead in the bag :-(
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1835
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 08:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Glad to help Tim! :-)

Jo Angela: "Red bag" delivery refers to the allantochorion (essentially the placenta) being passed without rupturing and the foal contained within. Reference to fescue and the fetal membranes being thick is different. The foal is essentially surrounded by two sets of membranes, both filled with fluid. The membrane that surround the foal immediately adjacent to the foal is the amniotic sac. That contains the foal and amniotic fluid. Surrounding the outside of the amniotic sac is allantoic fluid, and that is what is contained within the the allantochorion (aka "placenta"). This last thing is the "red bag", and when it separates prematurely from the linking of the uterus, and tries to pass the whole package out at one go, you have a "red bag delivery".
 

Jo Angela Stirewalt
Breeding Stock
Username: Raknrydr

Post Number: 119
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - 03:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK thanks, now I do think I remember reading that info in a book. But for some reason I forgot the foal is double bagged and I was thinking the placenta was the lining of the uterus that just cames out after the birth, but I guess if its lining the uterus and the foal is in the uterus then the foal is contained in that bag also.
Duh, guess I have just not thought about it that hard to analysis it to were it makes perfect since.



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