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327 Day old foal born dead

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Abortion and Pregnancy Loss » 327 Day old foal born dead « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

JENNIFER CASWELL
Neonate
Username: Jkcaswell

Post Number: 8
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 11:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Our maiden mare gave birth to a dead foal this morning. The sac was brownish/greenish color, and very thin. Vet believes the foal to have been dead for a couple of days. The mare showed no abnormal signs, she's been her normal self. We did a necropsy on the foal, as well as ran every imaginable type of test we could do on the mare, but now we have to wait for the results, of course. When we opened the foal, there was an abnormal amount of blood in the cavity. No visual signs of rupture was present. The Spleen was larger than normal and had very odd lighter colored, small bumps on about 1/3 of it. The bumps looked similar to what you would see on a cows tonque. There was also the same kind of bumps on the sac. Samples have been sent out for testing. The placenta was also very small, but otherwise normal. Everything else looked normal, and aside from being dead, this colt "looked healthy", meaning, size weight, proportion was all normal. Any idea's what these bumps could be? I am beating myself up with the what if's, and I am not patient. I am hoping for a definate answer as soon as everything comes back, and hope for something. Mare has been very healthy and current on all vaccines and worming. I don't want to put this mare through this again, though thankfully, she didn't get to bond with the foal, so she really didn't have the chance to get attached. If we do let her carry her own foal from now on, I wonder also, how she will react to her next foal, will she become maternal or will she reject it? She so far, looks great and has a healthy appetite. We cultured and flushed her today and will again tomorrow. Any suggestions or suspicions would be so appreciated.
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 1060
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 11:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't have any guesses or answers for you but I do want to say I'm extrememly sorry for your loss :-( I don't think you need to worry about her not being maternal the next time around though, I'm sure her instincts will kick in and bond with the next foal :-)
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 1344
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 11:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jennifer~So sorry for your loss. Heartbreaking. It will be interesting to find out what the test results show. 2006 my mare lost a foal full term, red bag delivery, plancentitis...she was griefing for several days and called and called for her foal. We rebred and she delivered a healthy foal in 2007 and bonded right away so I would thing that would not keep her from bonding. Glad you cultured her but did they do a cystology too? Again Hugs and Sympathy
 

JENNIFER CASWELL
Neonate
Username: Jkcaswell

Post Number: 9
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, March 28, 2008 - 11:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We did a cystology also. As I said, every thing that can be tested for can and will be done. This mares owners do not care about money, they only want the best for their horses. Depending on what we find out, we might just do embryo transfers with this mare in the future. She is a 6 year old show mare, who wins the hearts of everyone who meets her. Last fall, she was Top Ten at the US Arabian Nationals, and I remember crying because her baby just took his first Nationals victory pass, and she was exactly half way through her pregnancy that day. It was a very emotional win for me. While I don't own her, I have been her caretaker for 3 years, in my heart she's mine. Her colt was beautiful, bay with 4 whites and a star. So heartbreaking. Mom is doing well, she does have a bit of a lost look in her eyes tonight, and she just wants to lay her head on me. I just hope and pray we get some answers.

here are a couple of photos of her at Nationals, hope you can view them.
http://www.ferraraphoto.com/2007USN/0557/usn07_12064.htm

http://www.ferraraphoto.com/2007USN/0557/usn07_05888.htm

Thanks a bunch
 

Marilyn Lemke - Dora due 7/31/08
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 1197
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 07:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm very sorry to hear of your tragic loss. It's so heartbreaking to see this happening. This year has been a tough one regarding foaling for quite a few people. I hope this trend stops right now.

I'm happy to hear the mare is doing alright considering what she's been through. She is gorgeous mare. I hope you find out what happened and hopefully the next foal will be perfectly healthy.
 

Terry Waechter 5 march foals
Breeding Stock
Username: Watchman

Post Number: 213
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 08:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is so hard to be disappointed in this way...it has happened twice to me in the years I have bred horses. Both mares went on to have healthy foals and they were great mothers every time they foaled. Hope you will get an explanation that will give you confidence for the next pregnancy.
 

Tim Popovitz
Nursing Foal
Username: Dystocia

Post Number: 20
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 09:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds like it was a twisted or compressed umbilical. This causes in-utero asphyxiation and usually results in the foal releasing it's meconium which would account for the staining of the amnionic sac. If this is what happened, it will not jepordize future pregnancies.
 

Mood Swings
Breeding Stock
Username: Mood_swings

Post Number: 112
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 09:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am sorry for your loss :-(
 

Crystal Gerszewski
Yearling
Username: Spot_collection

Post Number: 57
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am sorry for your loss, I know there are many things that can happen during pregnancy for out beloved four legged friends and it's difficult knowing that there is no way to know when something like that happens. I am very interested to hear what you find out, and I'm sure the mare will be fine with the maternal instincts so strong.
 

JENNIFER CASWELL
Neonate
Username: Jkcaswell

Post Number: 10
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 10:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mare is doing great today, she is very energetic and begging for treats. Her bag of course is streaming milk and painful, but she ran and bucked that down today. All of her bloodwork came back normal, though her culture started growing E.Coli and Strep. We still have a while to wait for all of the colts organ tissue samples to be looked over. We did a thorough check on the umbilical, and it didn't appear to have any damage to it, but it also has been sent off. I have over the years dealt with alot of abortions, but none full term. I worked his daddy today, and it was tough, this colt was the spitting image of him...in a half arab version! This was his first foal. I'll keep everyone updated on what we find out, and thanks again
 

judy cervantes
Breeding Stock
Username: Judy1

Post Number: 264
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 10:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

JENNIFER I AM SOOOOOO SORRY THAT YOU HAVE TO GO THREW THIS,MY HEART BRACKS FOR YOU,IAM WAITING FOR A FOAL OF MY OWN AND THIS JUST SCARES ME TO DEATH.
 

Laurie A Beltran
Yearling
Username: Prophecy_ranch

Post Number: 91
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2008 - 12:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenifer,
Being at the nationals is a feat in inself, You should be proud of her accomplishment, I was there in 2006, I'm an equine artist. So I know all the hard work thats involved, She made everyone proud!! I am totally sorry for her loss! Maybe the next one will be "THE ONE" I know how much its hurting you just know that all our thought and prayers are with you!

My Arabian mare is due in 3 weeks My fingers are crossed that everything goes well!

Take care Jennifer!
Laurie
 

JENNIFER CASWELL
Nursing Foal
Username: Jkcaswell

Post Number: 11
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2008 - 09:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Laurie,

I am more than proud of her! She was 3rd overall in the final! She is just the best girl, easy, always happy, never stressed out. She goes to a show and thinks it's a great place to catch up on her beauty sleep. It was because of her disposition, that we knew we could ship her across the country to a show, in foal, and not have to worry about her. The entire 3 weeks we were there, she was ridden 3 times, and 2 of those, she was shown. She just hand walked or lightly lunged the rest of the time. She is a show horse in heart, and we made the decision today, that for the time being, no matter what the test results show, that we will do ET'S with her, and let her do what she really loves. She is young, and someday, she can be a momma herself.
 

Laurie A Beltran
Yearling
Username: Prophecy_ranch

Post Number: 92
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 08:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jennifer,
Good luck with you and your loving mare. one day she will have a foal and all awfulness will be behind! My best wishes to you and yours!

L
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 994
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, March 31, 2008 - 11:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Im so sorry for your loss. When these things happen it doesnt matter who owns the mare it still hurts. I hope you get the answers you are looking for.
 

JENNIFER CASWELL
Nursing Foal
Username: Jkcaswell

Post Number: 12
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 01:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, today we found out that the cause was Rhino. How and why I am not sure. The mare has been kept current on all vaccines, especially her 5,7 & 9 month shots. Every horse on the farm has been vaccinated, nobody has been sick. You try and do everything to protect them, and it still isn't good enough. We are giving the rest of the pregnant mares boosters in the morning, and are going to keep praying all stays well. We did check the rest of the girls Saturday via external ultrasound and everything is well so far. We are going to check each one weekly until they foal. Luckily she expelled the fetus quickly, before it caused her any issues, we might not get so lucky the next time. Now I'm off to do some research on Rhino.
 

Marilyn Lemke - Dora due 7/31/08
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 1219
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 07:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just don't understand, if you were current on your shots and all, why would this happen? If you find out any more information on your research, would you mind informing us, I'm perplexed.

Again, I'm sorry this happened, it's a real shame. :-(
 

Laurie A Beltran
Yearling
Username: Prophecy_ranch

Post Number: 95
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 08:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenneifer,
Like you said, you do everything you can possibly do and this happens? On the flip side you actually have ignorant people who do nothing for the mares the whole pregnancy and they have a beautiful foal? This happend to me not with a pregnacy but the same pricipals!

You seem to be a smart cookie, continue looking for the answer!

Best to ya,
L
 

Bobbi Govro
Yearling
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 65
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 11:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jennifer: I am so sorry for your loss. My heart goes out to you. Sometimes maybe we all get a false sense of security. In my years of being a small animal vet tech, we used to tell people that vaccines are not always a 100% guarantee of immunity...for a variety of reasons. I'm sure that applies in the equine world as well. I don't know about the Rhino virus, but I had a gelding who was a carrier of the strangles virus...never had any symptoms or signs of the illness...interesting things these diseases can be. My best friend works for a major veterinary product distributor and I had inquired with her regarding vaccinating my herd for the Strangles when this had happened. She had informed me then that the vaccination does not guarantee that they will be protected.

Laurie: You are so right! In my many years of horses, I have had friends who never vaccinated or wormed their horses (never) and had beautiful, healthy animals. I, on the other hand, have gone out of my way to do everything possibly to prevent problems and have certainly had my share of them. Makes no sense.

My vet has my mare program set up with a Pneumo shot at 3, 5, 7 & 9 months, with a full set of vaccinations (including west nile and rabies) at 30 days prior to foaling date. Anyone else on this regiment? Just curious...we changed from the standard 5,7,9 this year.

Keep us posted Jennifer on what you may discover in your research. Continued education helps us all to find better care and management.
 

Catherine Owen
Breeding Stock
Username: Cateowen

Post Number: 110
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 01:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jennifer,
First off, let me say that I am SO, SO SORRY for your heartbreaking loss. Your mare is beautiful and this sounds like it was absolutely devastating to all involved.

Secondly, don't let this deter you from breeding this gorgeous girl again. She may very well go on to have a dozen foals and not another single problem.

Rhino --- I do have to wonder if hauling her and showing her, perhaps she picked it up somewhere? I'm sort of weird about that, our broodmares typically go from home to the breeding farm back to home back to breeding farm to foal and be re-bred and typically don't "go anywhere". But then I do know people that show their mares while preggers and have never had a problem. I just have to wonder if she picked up Rhino somewhere on the show trail.

Vaccines --- I'd be VERY interested in what you find out in your research on Rhino. We too vaccinate in the 5th, 7th and 9th months with a full set of "everything" about a month prior to foaling. I often wonder if "strains" of a disease develop that are immune to vaccines though. It happens all the time, it seems like they are constantly trying to "catch up" in regards to flu strains.

Regarding people that "ignore" their horses and never seem to have any problems. This too irks me to no end. I guess it is an example of the saying "God watches out for fools and children". I have some neighbors right now that every day when I drive by their property I think I need to turn them over to the Humane Society. They have this one mare right now that is pregnant and running out on fescue pasture that I know is infected (all of our fescue pastures in Upstate South Carolina typically have the endophyte). I swear these people never worm or vaccinate and I don't think they know what a horseshoer is. I have watched these poor horses all winter try to eake out an existence versus about 20 cattle running on the same eaten down pasture as them.

Bless your heart and lots of hugs. She will probably bless you next year with a perfect foal that will go on to win the Nationals!
 

Kim Peavy/ Sweetie 7/3/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Lovemysinbad

Post Number: 145
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 03:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry about the loss of your foal....it is just so heartbreaking.

My vet also has us on the 3, 5, 7 and 9th month rhino shots and full set at 30 days before foaling. We are in Central Florida. She just had her last rhino yesterday.....June 1st, we'll take care of the rest and remove casliks.....
 

JENNIFER CASWELL
Nursing Foal
Username: Jkcaswell

Post Number: 13
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 11:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi all, and thanks for all of the encouragement, it is so appreciated. The mares last show was in October, she has never even had a sniffle in all the time we have had her(3 years). She never stresses, I swear she is just the happiest go lucky girl in the world. So some of what I have read has suggested that once a horse has had the Rhino virus, they will always carry it. stress can trigger it, though again, she has shown no symptoms nor signs of any stress. No new horses that we have gotten in have been sick, and all have been vaccinated, and we require vaccines be administered by a vet, with verification prior to arrival. This mare had never been vaccinated, until she was 3 when we got her, she lived in a field in Canada, with no shelter, in a herd of about 30 horses, so it is possible, she had gotten Rhino as a youngster, and it has just hidden itself. The vaccines help protect, but are not a complete safegard. I'm worried about my other mares, scared to death really, and we did pull blood on all of them today, and most likely, will continue to do so, until they foal. We are fortunate that these girls are wonderful to deal with and they always know a carrot follows every needle poke. Our new facility is almost finished, and the broodmares can be kept completely separated from the show horses. There will really be no reason for them to come to the main barn, as it is fully equipt with all they will need. I still am not convinced that a new horse may have brought something in, as we haven't been to any shows since Nationals, in October. Most likely, it will always be a mystery, and we will not have any solid answers. If this had to happen, I'm almost glad, that the foal was born dead, as the other option would have been he was born alive, a died within days. In that case, not only would we be devastated, but my poor girl would have had that small time of motherly instinct and she would have been tramatized...that I couldn't deal with.

Her bag is almost a memory today, so she is much more comfortable. She is very happy to be out lunging and today while she was in the ready room, she grabbed one of the bridles off the wall, by the bit and started shaking it up and down....she wants to go back to work I think. She'll get her wish, she gets to be a show horse again this year, she's still quite fit, and already qualified for the Nationals, so we can wait til this summer to show her. We may or may not get an Embryo from her this, it's not a huge importance, her well being is all we care about.
 

Laurie A Beltran
Yearling
Username: Prophecy_ranch

Post Number: 98
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 08:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jennifer,
I wish you all the luck in the world if you are ever at any of the bigger Arabian shows, Scottsdale, Nationals, PS-Regionals Look me up. The Equine Design I attend most of the Big show except this last year we had major fires in San Diego and we had to evacuate! We all are safe now Thank God, Try fitting 4 horses in a 3 horse trailer!!

My Mare was vacinated with Rhino 5,7,9- and had an allergic reaction to the last dose!
On Monday we gave her 4-way and the West Nile, one on her neck one in between her chest now there is a hematoma (sp)the size of a grapefruit! She has no other signs to worry about walking eating drinking! Sometimes I wonder if everything we do to protect them is worth putting them through all if it! I know it is! It just makes me MAD! next door they have 4 horses do nothing with them no shots they haven't been shod in over a year and thier mare had a wonderful healthy foal?????????????????????????
Luck of the IRISH!

Take care Jennifer!
 

Cjskip
Breeding Stock
Username: Cjskip

Post Number: 562
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Sunday, May 25, 2008 - 04:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jennifer, I'm sorry that the only thing I have to add to this thread, is my sincere condolences. You've lost what no doubt would have been a wonderful horse. I'm so sorry.

You're right about the neighbors and others like them. It is baffling. But at least horse people who take care of them know we do the best we can and if there is a tragedy, at least we know that lack of basic care was not the cause. Sending healing vibes your way.



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