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Premature placental seperation

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Abortion and Pregnancy Loss » Premature placental seperation « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Lindros
Nursing Foal
Username: Lindros

Post Number: 20
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 07:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One of my friends recently bought a new broodmare. A couple of days after the mare arrived at the farm she noticed a small amount of blood in the mare's vulva. Two days later there was some more blood. The ultrasound revealed some separation of the placenta. I've know of mares with separation and/or placentitis and a positive out come. But most of those mares where only a few weeks from foaling. This mare is currently 7 months. What are the chances of this mare carrying the foal to term? She's getting treated with regumate and TMS.
Thanks for your input!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1092
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 07:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Flunixin meglumine ("Banamine") is often used in these situations as well. It is both an anti-inflammatory and a prostaglandin-release inhibitor, either property being beneficial in this situation.

I have seen mares that were treated to term with the TMS and 310 days with the Flunixin meglumine and Regumate deliver a foal safely.

Be aware that the mare will be more likely to foal earlier rather than later, and there is an increased risk of premature placental separation during foaling ("Red Bag delivery"), so attendance at the foaling is essential.
 

Mood Swings
Neonate
Username: Mood_swings

Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 09:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello!
First off let me say - wow what a great and informative site Thank you Lindros for telling me about it!
Jos - when you say you've seen mares treated with flunixin meglumine do you mean literally that they were treated for 310 days? That sounds very expensive! Good point about the "red bag delivery" I will make sure there are many people available . . . right Lindrosas the previous owner has forewarned me about her large foals. I'm keeping my fingers and toes crossed in hopes that the foal makes it to term. Any other suggestions or happy ending stories are much appreciated. Thanks
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1094
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 06:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the compliments on the site :-)

A mare would not be put on the flunixin until she was showing signs of placentitis (or impending abortion if not through placentitis) - and that would be unlikely to be seen until about the 4th month of pregnancy at the earliest, so she would not be on for the entire 310 days.

Even if one were unlucky enough to have a mare identified with placentitis that early, there may be situations where one would elect not to keep the mare on the flunixin for the entire rest of the pregnancy.... BUT contemplate this for a moment - even if you were to have the mare on the drug for say 200 days, that would equate to perhaps a cost probably not exceeding US$800. It costs (on average) about $1,000 a year to keep a mare - pregnant or not - so not spending the $800 would mean in the case of pregnancy loss that one loses $200 (because one didn't spend the money on the drug, so $1,000 to keep the mare minus $800) - less the cost of the stud fee (if not refundable/LfG), vet bills for the breeding etc. etc. All in all, the cost of not giving it is probably going to be more if the mare loses the pregnancy than the cost of giving it and saving the pregnancy (although there's no guarantee it will) - and let's face it - if one is raising foals that aren't worth $800 when they hit the ground (to cover the cost of the drug), then perhaps it's time to re-evaluate the breeding program anyway!!! :-)
 

Kjersti Tackett
Nursing Foal
Username: Freetodream

Post Number: 18
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 06:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On this topic of premature pacental separation, we had a mare foal in 2004 that although is was not a red bag delivery the placenta came out half covering the foal. What causes this? Placentitis? Ultimatley the foal was okay on the small side and looked a bit premature/dysmature (breeding dates were unknown and mare foaled as a 2yr old) and she was starved before we bought her three months prior so that may have played a part as well.
The reason I'm asking is this same mare is pregnant again and due in February. Is there anything to prevent that from happening or is it a rather benign occurance that I shouldn't worry about. Any insight?
 

Ruth
Weanling
Username: Rooty

Post Number: 39
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 12:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Our 4 yo was delivered like this - my vet at the time thought it was most likely due to the mare being a maiden, and didn't seem to be overly concerned about a reoccurence, although he did say it was a good thing we were there, as the foal would likely have died otherwise. That was a leased mare and I never bred her again.
In your case I would be very sure to be there at the birth.
 

Kjersti Tackett
Nursing Foal
Username: Freetodream

Post Number: 19
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 01:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Ruth good to know I'm not the only one thats had that happen. We plan on being there no worries; I attend all of our foalings even if they've never had problems just to be sure. I could never get over it it I didn't and lost one that I could've saved ya know. I was just curious if it was likely to be a problem caused by placentits because how I understood it once a mare has shown a tendency toward it (because of conformation issues or otherwise) then it may be common for them to repeat that. Her vulvar conformation is not sloped but it isn't as tight a seal as I would like to see as it gaps just a tiny bit at the bottom, however our vet didn't think it needed caslicked. Any other thoughts?
 

dreamonthefly
Nursing Foal
Username: Dreamonthefly

Post Number: 15
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 09:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i've read about red bag in my books and have an idea of what to see/look for. can someone emphazise for me the procedure when i have such an experience. ? it is my understanding i will see a dark red, velvety appearance bag when my mare is foaling.
thanks for any peace of mind.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1096
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 10:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kjersti:

Without having a definitive diagnosis for placentitis, it is really impossible to determine at this late stage whether that was in fact the cause of the PPS that you saw. There are other causes which may include endophyte-related issues; poor endometrium; various viral problems; etc. Without knowing the cause, it's not possible to determine if there is anything that can be done to aid prevention in future pregnancies - or even if it will be a problem in future pregnancies!

Dreamonthefly:

You've pretty much summed up what you are likely to see if the allantochorion actually makes it to the outside of the mare. In some cases though it may not be a complete separation and one may have a mare that is obviously in labour, but whose "waters" have not broken. Evaluation vaginally (typically by your veterinarian) will identify the presence of the unruptured allantochorion (which feels different from the amnion), and this is then ruptured manually and hopefully the foaling will progress without further incident.

If the allantochorion is already external (the "red bag") then it must be ruptured, the white sac that is contained within also ruptured, and the foal's feet found and the foaling process encouraged to proceed as rapidly as is expedient.
 

dreamonthefly
Nursing Foal
Username: Dreamonthefly

Post Number: 16
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 01:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

one the bag is broken, is the foal breathing on it
's own externally.....or recieving oxygen from the mare. i think it is breathing on it's own which nessitates the need for quick delivery to allow the chest to expand ??
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1097
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 03:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The foal will not be able to breathe until it's chest is outside the mare, and able to expand and fill the lungs. As the placenta has detatched, there is no oxygen transfer to the foal from the mare. That's why premature placental separation is such a bad thing and likely to cause either the death of the foal or an HIE foal (hypoxic ischemic encephalopathy, formerly referred to as "neonatal maladjustment" or commonly called "dummy foal").
 

Mood Swings
Neonate
Username: Mood_swings

Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 11:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just to give an update. . .
There has not been any blood in her vulva for the last week or so - yeah! She is still getting TMS and a double dose of regumate. I am keeping my fingers crossed, still 3 1/2 months to go.
 

Kirsten Hammer
Neonate
Username: Kirsten

Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 02:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One of my show mares decided to go into labor on day 300 of her pregnancy. She was a maiden mare at the time. Fortunately, we have one the world's top equine reproduction veterinary clincs nearby and were able to keep her in foal until her 330th day. Turned out she had gotten a uterine infection. You could see the infection pattern on the placenta. The colt was fine. However, when we bred back to the same stallion, the mare aborted at approximately 7 months along. We believe coyotes got the carcass of the foal since we were unable to locate it. The next year she aborted at about 5 months. After that she wouldn't take at all. One vet suggested that the AI process might be at fault. We had her covered live by a Thoroughbred stallion and had a beautiful, problem free textbook pregnancy. I wish you luck with your mare.
 

Terry Waechter
Neonate
Username: Watchman

Post Number: 5
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 12:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I came to the bulletin board tonight to research this topic because my mare at 250 days seems to have the symptoms you all describe...slight bagging up, discharge, slight fever, low prog. levels. She is on Bamamine, Regimate, and sulfa. She is due in mid May so we have a long way to go. She is having an u/s on Thursday. I am hoping for the best but realize this could be a bad situation. Hope all will continue to post on this subject. Thanks for the information.
 

Jan Owen
Breeding Stock
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 187
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 03:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Terry,

My fingers crossed for you. Really tough to know what to do. Last year my mare had a textbook problem free pregnancy and at 356 days red bag delivered a foal unattended and the foal DNS. My repro vet discovered an infection that she suspected was late term. The foal was in perfect condition but the mare did have an infection and took a process to get her cleaned out and ready for breeding in Aug. 06. We chose to use the "settle" drug and Oxy prodical and a caslick procedure to keep that uterus clean. Today we are at 194. This time she is going to the local equine breeding hospital to foal out just for my own piece of mind. Good luck, let us know what the u/s shows on Thursday. Jan
 

Terry Waechter
Neonate
Username: Watchman

Post Number: 6
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Saturday, March 03, 2007 - 10:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jan for your concern...

When we did the U/S we found that Lil had slipped her foal...no way to know exactly when it happened. So the vet is flushing her out and we will try again when she cycles this spring. I am just glad she seems okay although it is hard to lose a much anticipated baby.
 

Mood Swings
Weanling
Username: Mood_swings

Post Number: 25
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 08:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Terry, I am sorry about your foal :-( I wish you success and happy breedings this spring!
 

Jan Owen
Breeding Stock
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 190
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 05:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Terry,

I am so sorry. What a bummer. It is really hard to lose something you want so badly. I am glad your mare is okay and I will keep my fingers crossed for a successful spring time for you! Make sure you get her cultured and a smear (cystology?)and that everything is squeaky clean inside. Keep us posted! Jan
 

Cindy Holland
Yearling
Username: Iagrl

Post Number: 99
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 02:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a question on "red bag" deliveries. I watched a youtube video of a mini-mare and her delivery was a "red bag."

To quote Jos, "If the allantochorion is already external (the "red bag") then it must be ruptured, the white sac that is contained within also ruptured, and the foal's feet found and the foaling process encouraged to proceed as rapidly as is expedient."

That is what they did in the youtube video. They also pulled the foal out without waiting for the contractions of the mare. Will this damage the reproduction tract of the mare?? Or will there not be damage since the placenta is already detached? I know for a normal birth you do not want to pull at all!

Please give me your thoughts.
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3029
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 04:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I saw the same video the other day cindy....I thought the folks were WAY wrong on pulling even when the mare wasn't contracting!!
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2526
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 05:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Waaaaa... I want to see the video. How do I find it?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2776
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 08:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem with a premature placental separation is that - by definition - the placenta is no longer attached to the lining of the uterus, and therefore the foal is not being supplied with oxygen. The decision to pull is typically made regardless of contractions as if the foal is not got out in a hurry it will suffocate. OTOH, pulling without gradual distention of the cervix and reproductive tract may cause tearing of the cervix and excessive bruising of the tract.

Catch 22. Save the foal and damage the mare reproductively, or run the risk of having the foal die or be born hypoxic) and save the mare reproductively.... It's a decision that has to be made at the time... :-(
 

Cindy Holland
Yearling
Username: Iagrl

Post Number: 100
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 09:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Marilyn, here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avugTkuk7c8&feature=related

Jos, thanks for the information. I was wondering if it was a catch 22 situation. I hope I do not have to face that decision. What action is usually taken? If the foal is presented correctly, is the best thing to do is pull the foal out quickly even though damage to the mare's reproductive tract is likely? In most cases does the mare recover from the damage?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2777
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 09:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It will be a decision that has to be made by the individuals concerned at the time - there is no rule. 25 year old mare you're breeding for the last time? Probably pull. Foal from the last dose of frozen semen from a dead world-champion stallion stallion? Probably pull. Foal from the next-door-neighbour's mutt pony that got through the fence and bred your prize mare? Probably take a little more time getting that one out! :-)

Recovery ability from damage will depend upon the damage. If the cervix is torn, it may be reparable surgically, or it could preclude adequate closure to prevent pregnancy loss on future pregnancies. If it's just bruising of the tract, then time will probably heal it just fine.
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3030
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Friday, March 26, 2010 - 11:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HAHAHAHAHA!! Too funny jos, i like the way you think......" Probably take a little more time getting that one out...." LOL
 

Deb Anderson
Breeding Stock
Username: Bobs_mom

Post Number: 172
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 08:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow Cindy - I really wished I had seen the video last year. Awesome footage for a tough situation with usually bad outcome.
 

Cindy Holland
Breeding Stock
Username: Iagrl

Post Number: 105
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Saturday, March 27, 2010 - 10:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos, thanks for the different scenarios. I guess it would be good to think about what action to take before the event. I would hate to pull a foal out of a young mare and damage her reproductive tract to the point that she could not have more foals.

Deb, it was an interesting video. At least I know what options I have for a "red bag" delivery.
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2528
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2010 - 11:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cindy, thank you for providing the video clip. I didn't realize you had to pull the foal out even after you cut open the red bag and had the foal take a breath.

It's a good thing this thread was here, I would never had known this. I hope to God I never have to make this decision.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2779
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2010 - 01:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Foals in the process of being born rely on placental source oxygen until their chest is outside the mare at which time they can expand their lungs and breathe. While the ribcage is still compressed inside the mare, the foal cannot breath itself (or if it can, inadequately to provide sufficient oxygen for survival) - having the foal's nose out is not enough to allow breathing!
 

Marilyn Lemke
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 2536
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Sunday, March 28, 2010 - 01:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Jos for explaining. I didn't think about the abdomin needing to expand. Dah! lol

Thank goodness for Jos's knowledge and know how and for this site! It has helped me out numereous times.



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